Danny Williams - murder or suicide?

[justins5256]

I was thinking about this case today and decided to do a search on the boards. I was surprised to see that there hasn't been a whole lot of discussion about it. There were a few threads where some folks had said they thought Williams was murdered and the investigation botched but unfortunately, the discussions didn't elaborate much beyond that.

So, I would like to open this as a possible topic for discussion.

A quick recap (Feel free to correct any mistakes. I'm going from memory here) - Danny Williams was found shot to death in his home in Illinois(?) in 1991. Danny was in his early twenties, I believe, and while the segment didn't elaborate much on his personal life it didn't seem as though Danny had any enemies or obvious problems. His body was discovered by his father, who went to check on him after not hearing from Danny for a couple days. Danny was found in a sitting position on the couch with the gun in his lap and a bullet wound to the head. The police ruled his death a suicide. However, the family believed otherwise and hired a PI and a ballistics expert to examine Danny's death more closely.

- The PI found neighbors who claimed they had seen an unidentified woman and an unidentified man on Danny's property at two different times before the discovery of Danny's body. The police claim they interviewed the neighbors and came to believe they were mistaken about the days they saw these people on the property. The unidentified woman might have even been Danny's mother.

- The ballistics expert took detailed measurements of the living room and tried to establish the trajectory of the fatal bullet. He was unable to do so in a manner that would have resulted in Danny's body being found the way it was - in an upright sitting position with the gun in his lap. The police maintained they also checked the trajectory and found it matched the suicide theory.

- Most compelling of all, the ballistics expert found traces of blood at the scene. The police found this blood as well and identified it as Danny's. However, the expert hired by Danny's family said there were two distinct blood types present at two different locations in the house. I believe the blood types were A and O. Danny had type A blood. The type O sample could not be linked to anyone known to be in the house. However, the police claim their crime lab analysis did NOT find any type O blood in the house.

- Danny's father claims he found a shell casing in the couch on which Danny's body was found. The shell from the bullet that killed Danny had been recovered, so where did this additional shell come from?

- In the weeks prior to Danny's death he had had an argument with his girlfriend and made a comment about shooting himself in the head. He had a gun and actually fired it, though not at himself - I don't think the segment elaborated on where this incident happened, so it may or may not be related to the additional shell casing found in the couch.

The biggest problem with the case seems to be that there is no obvious motive for someone to kill Danny - a fact that even the family acknowledges.

So, what do you guys think?

[Cori aka ChrisSCrush]

Did the expert save the Type O blood sample and can it be DNA tested?

[justins5256]

bump

[MegtheEgg86]

I think Danny Williams committed suicide.

There certainly have been plenty of homicides staged to look like suicides by posing the victim in a seated position, with the weapon either in the victim's lap, the seat, or the floor nearby. Geberth's Practical Homicide Investigation (essentially the bible for many, many law enforcement agencies on the subject) specifically addresses this and provides examples of faked and actual suicides involving a seated victim and handgun. As a matter of fact (and this is purely anecdotal, of course), I have seen more than one police entry examination presenting a seated-victim-handgun-suicide illustration, showing such detail as bullet holes in the wall and the position of the fallen weapon; examinees must choose the most probable cause of the victim's death according to his or her interpretation of the scene. Often, they're clearly faked suicides.

My point is that unless those police officials are grossly, grossly incompetent, it would be very difficult for them to botch that investigation. If law enforcement agencies receive constant training on the matter, and if some of them feel comfortable presenting that particular scenario to applicants who often have never had any sort of investigative training whatsoever in their lives, I have a very difficult time believing they could unwittingly bungle the entire thing. That particular scene is very, very easy (in relation to others) to determine a homicide or suicide.

Of course, the agency could be corrupt. But why purposely mishandle Williams' investigation? There's no motive.

Just because no one in the house had type O blood does not mean whoever was in the house with type O blood (assuming there was) committed Williams' murder. I would be curious as to the nature of the samples: how large were they? Where, exactly, were they discovered? Are both as fresh as the crime scene? Why did the police not find any type O blood? There's a lot to be learned there.

In some suicide-by-firearm cases, the victim will "test fire" the weapon before turning it on him- or herself. That would explain the second casing found in the couch.

It's circumstantial, but Williams did threaten suicide in the weeks before his death, and was apparently comfortable enough with firearms to utilize one.

And, of course, no known individual had any known motive to kill him.


Suicide.

[TracyLynnS]

If I ever decide to kill myself, and you never know but it could happen, I've had lyme disease for 23 years now, and a heart condition that has seriously gotten worse over the last 2 years, (not to mention that I live in michigan, lost my job, DH lost his job, we lost our house and the hundred grand we put down on it, lost our savings, lost our retirement, and even lost three old cars that were paid off), but anyway, if I were to decide that it's time to for me to go, I'd leave a note.

But maybe that's just because I'm a wordy person. Like you guys couldn't already tell that from all the ridiculously long posts I'm always writing on here...

So... I would want to write a note, and let my family and friends know why I was leaving, and what I would want done with my body, funeral, and other things. (I'm 41, I haven't gotten my will and final arrangements together yet, so I'd have to do that in my exit letter.)

I guess some people just get really emotional or have a huge moment of passion where they just kill themselves without thinking it through and then it just cruelly leaves their loved ones behind wondering what happened.

There's no explanation or clear idea of what the circumstances were. That's a horrible thing to make your family endure on top of dealing with your death. If I may be so rude as to say this, it's just very selfish.

[Mastermind]

The problem I have with the suicide theory is the manner in which the gun was found.

It was found so neatly in his lap and not laying on the floor or on the coach.

So... I would want to write a note, and let my family and friends know why I was leaving, and what I would want done with my body, funeral, and other things. (I'm 41, I haven't gotten my will and final arrangements together yet, so I'd have to do that in my exit letter.)

You would think so, but a lot of people committ suicide without notes and suddenly. Usually for the reason that they don't want to lose the nerve. if you start writing a suicide note, you might start thinking about your family and decide not to go ahead with the act.

It's important to keep in mind that this case is classified as unexplained death, not suicide or murder.

A big question in this case, is if that old busybody neighbor was just confused or if there was actually a woman that picked up Danny that day.

A point that got overlooked in this case, is that Danny's family was pretty wealthy and had a prosperous business. i wonder if there were any enemies they may have cultivated during that time.

[TracyLynnS]

I've heard a lot of people say that if you commit suicide with a gun, your hand will grip the gun and hold on to it in a natural nerve reaction. I find that hard to believe. I've seen people knocked unconcious (no gun involved) and they go completely limp, immediately. Seems like a gunshot to the head would have a similar effect.

Danny's gun was a 9mm. I've never shot one of those. Aren't they similar to a .45 in size and action?

A .45, if not held firmly will kick right back and show you who's boss. I imagine that if someone used that kind of a weapon to shoot themselves in the head, the gun would recoil violently and fly out of their hand, landing a good distance away. Not far away, but definitely not neatly in their lap or still in their hand with their hand resting in their lap.

Now, maybe a little .22 semi auto would be wimpy enough to land close to the body after a suicide shot to the head, but even my .22 revolver has enough recoil to land a foot or more away if I were to relax my body (as if suiciding) after shooting it. (Revolvers tend to have a bit more recoil than semi-autos because of the way semi autos are designed.)

I always thought those neat little "gun in the hand, shot to the head" suicides looked staged by a murderer.

My favorite was the stupid husband who half shoved a glove on his wife's hand, shot her to death, laid the gun on the floor, turned up the heat in the room where the body was, and covered her up with lots of blankets to try to fool the medical examiner on the time of death, while he ran around doing his errands in town. Who the heck lays on the couch and halfway puts on a gardening glove before shooting themselves to death? That husband was a bumbling criminal for sure.

[Apostapler]

My favorite was the stupid husband who half shoved a glove on his wife's hand, shot her to death, laid the gun on the floor, turned up the heat in the room where the body was, and covered her up with lots of blankets to try to fool the medical examiner on the time of death, while he ran around doing his errands in town. Who the heck lays on the couch and halfway puts on a gardening glove before shooting themselves to death? That husband was a bumbling criminal for sure.

I'm not familiar with that one. Do you have more info or a link?

[TracyLynnS]

I'm not familiar with that one. Do you have more info or a link?

I don't think that was ever on UM. Let me go search around and see what I can find. I don't remember the names, state, or anything, so it will take a while.

I'm pretty sure they had kids together, but I can't remember if they were school age, seems like they were.

And I've even forgotten what the motive was, but it might have been insurance money.

[MegtheEgg86]

Danny's gun was a 9mm. I've never shot one of those. Aren't they similar to a .45 in size and action?

A 9mm is nowhere close to a .45 as far as recoil is concerned. I learned how to shoot handguns with a 9, and boy oh boy, should I have started out with something bigger than a .38. A 9mm starts to feel a lot like a .22 after you're used to .40's and .45's.

[TracyLynnS]

Okay, so in theory then, with the recoil of a 9mm, the gun would have fallen close to the body, maybe similar to what would happen with a .22, but it wouldn't have fallen in his lap, and imo, definitely not held in his hand in his lap.

Yep, I'm suspicious...

[MissFit29]

I think the suspect in this case would be his girlfriend. No one else heard him make any threats of suicide except her. Also, is there proof that he actually discharged a weapon, as she claims? I'm inclined to think that she's involved somehow. The nosy neighbor saw him get into a car with a woman.

Danny was worth money from his family's clothing business. Maybe she wanted to be married into the family to have a claim to it. He doesn't want to marry her. She kills him in a fit of rage. Maybe that's stretching it, but I really don't think it's suicide. If Danny shot himself in the head, there would be a lot of visible blood in the room. Danny's dad didn't see any blood when he found Danny.

The whole scene just seemed to be a setup. I don't believe it was a suicide.

[Mastermind]

It's been a while since watching it but the bullet wound was in the front of his head, no?

Don't people commit suiced with the gun to the side of their head , or in the mouth?

[Apostapler]

It's been a while since watching it but the bullet wound was in the front of his head, no?

Don't people commit suiced with the gun to the side of their head , or in the mouth?

Normally yes. Turning a gun on yourself and shooting yourself in the forehead is not a comfortable or natural position in which to discharge the gun.

[TracyLynnS]

I watched a real detectives eppy (or similar show) the other day about Ray Beagle, the guy in FL who, back in 1993, killed two hunters for their pocket money. He suicided with a hand gun in the police station bathroom while he had been to see the cops for questioning.

He had barricaded himself in the bathroom during a break in the questioning, proceeded to have a shootout with the cops, then after writing on the walls and singing out loud, he killed himself.

What I thought was interesting was that in the re-enactment, the real police chief was interviewed and they showed what was said to be the real bathroom where it all happened. It was very small. Just a small private room with one toilet and a sink. It wasn't a big bathroom with seperate stalls. It was small and cramped.

When they re-enacted the scene of Ray's suicide, the cop said that Ray had been crouched on the floor by the toilet after exchanging gunfire. After he shot himself, the camera showed the pistol falling into the toilet.

I don't know if it really happened that way or if they were using artistic license, but I thought it was interesting that the suicide victim was in such close proximity to the toilet (crouched next to it on the floor) and immediately after the fatal shot, the gun isn't clutched in his grip, but his hand relaxes in death and he drops it.

[Mastermind]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mastermind
It's been a while since watching it but the bullet wound was in the front of his head, no?

Don't people commit suiced with the gun to the side of their head , or in the mouth?


Normally yes. Turning a gun on yourself and shooting yourself in the forehead is not a comfortable or natural position in which to discharge the gun.

That alone should give some credence to the murder theory.

Theory:
What if Danny was the victim of an accidental shooting. Perhaps some people were playing with a gun and Danny got shot in the head by accident. The perps freaked and decided to take him home and make it look like a suicide.

[TracyLynnS]

I just thought of this case. Several years ago, there was a young lawyer here in michigan who was having an affair with a judge. I think his name was Fletcher. I'll go look it up. Both of them were married.

The lawyer had a daughter with his wife and she had just gotten pregnant again, after he had assured his lover, the judge, he was not having sex with his wife. The judge was feeding him cases, helping him make extra money, and he didn't want to be discovered lying to her. He decided to kill his wife.

He dropped off the young daughter to be baby sat and took the wife to the gun range to teach her how to shoot. This was a ruse to get gun powder on her hands. Back at home, he convinced her to use the time alone without their daughter to have sex.

Basically, he shot her in the side of the head while she was on her knees on the floor. He told investigators that he was in the bathroom washing up after they'd been out shooting, and that she was in the bedroom sitting on the bed when he heard the gun shot. He firmly stated that he was not in the room when she was shot in the head.

So... THIS IS WHERE I'M CONNECTING IT TO DANNY'S CASE: The investigators were able to prove this killer was lying, because of the fine, high velocity spray of blood, that blew back from the impact of the shot. It was almost microscopic and was found embedded on the cuff of his shirt. He didn't even know it was there.

If the investigators in Danny's case would inspect Danny's hand and clothing for that microscopic spray of blood, they'd know if he shot the gun or not. Did they do that in his case or did they just rely on bullet trajectory and visible blood?

edit: yep his name is michael fletcher, here's the case http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/notorious_murders/family/fletcher/1.html

[zack007attack]

I know I wouldn't be a real expert about how to solve this, but as a third year forensic science major in college, I believe he was murdered. If he committed suicide, there should have been blood spatter and GSR on his hands and on the gun. There also should have been a more significant amount of blood on the wall. The private investigator even determined that Danny could not have been able to line up the gun with the angle the bullet entered the wall without falling over. It was as if Danny shot the gun then laid it down in his lap.

The large amounts of blood in other parts of the house most certainly warrants investigation with DNA evidence.

[TracyLynnS]

I always thought those neat little "gun in the hand, shot to the head" suicides looked staged by a murderer.

My favorite was the stupid husband who half shoved a glove on his wife's hand, shot her to death, laid the gun on the floor, turned up the heat in the room where the body was, and covered her up with lots of blankets to try to fool the medical examiner on the time of death, while he ran around doing his errands in town. Who the heck lays on the couch and halfway puts on a gardening glove before shooting themselves to death? That husband was a bumbling criminal for sure.

I finally figured out who this wife murderer is.

Robert Bruce of Farmville, VA. His wife was Carol Bruce. The case is on the ID channel right now.

The episode is New Detectives "false witness" from the year 2000.

Robert was scheduled to be sentenced for embezzlement not long after his wife's murder. When the police got the call of shots fired at the Bruce home, they immediately thought that he had killed himself rather than face prison time. But when they arrived, they saw that it was his wife who had "committed suicide".

[mattc]

I truly believe this was a suicide. It appears that the family was desperately trying to find ANYTHING to conflict with the suicide idea. I can understand this, as it is very difficult to accept a son's suicide.

I remember that the UM segment mentioned that Danny's girlfriend had witnessed Danny threatening to commit suicide, including even putting the gun to his head and then moving and and firing it at a wall. Also, it was mentioned that he had just had his license revoked; why? Did he have a drinking problem? Problems with the law? Something was going on.

I tend to give parents the benefit of the doubt, in UM segments where a child is thought to have killed him/herself and they think otherwise. However, this is one case where there just really is not enough to support the murder idea.

The private investigator appeared to be grasping at straws, honestly, such as making a huge deal out of finding another type of blood in his house. I bet if you did a luminol analysis on my house, or any house, you'd find blood in different places (from former tenants, nose bleeds, cuts, etc). They found the blood and erroneously concluded it had been left the same night as Danny died... that is not scientifically accurate. The only other thing going for the murder theory is the nosy neighbor who claims she saw him get in a car with a woman 2 hours after the coroner estimated that Danny had killed himself. Come on...

To be honest, I'm surprised this was aired on UM because I always considered it a weaker mystery; as in, really no mystery at all.

[zack007attack]

I truly believe this was a suicide. It appears that the family was desperately trying to find ANYTHING to conflict with the suicide idea. I can understand this, as it is very difficult to accept a son's suicide.

I remember that the UM segment mentioned that Danny's girlfriend had witnessed Danny threatening to commit suicide, including even putting the gun to his head and then moving and and firing it at a wall. Also, it was mentioned that he had just had his license revoked; why? Did he have a drinking problem? Problems with the law? Something was going on.

I tend to give parents the benefit of the doubt, in UM segments where a child is thought to have killed him/herself and they think otherwise. However, this is one case where there just really is not enough to support the murder idea.

The private investigator appeared to be grasping at straws, honestly, such as making a huge deal out of finding another type of blood in his house. I bet if you did a luminol analysis on my house, or any house, you'd find blood in different places (from former tenants, nose bleeds, cuts, etc). They found the blood and erroneously concluded it had been left the same night as Danny died... that is not scientifically accurate. The only other thing going for the murder theory is the nosy neighbor who claims she saw him get in a car with a woman 2 hours after the coroner estimated that Danny had killed himself. Come on...

To be honest, I'm surprised this was aired on UM because I always considered it a weaker mystery; as in, really no mystery at all.

Based on the evidence found at the scene, I doubt Danny committed suicide. There was almost no blood spatter on the wall behind the couch, no blood spatter on his hand which held the gun. There was a large amount of blood the same type as Danny's on the TV in front of him. If DNA results came back saying it was Danny's blood, that is definitely enough to say he was murdered.

While sometimes it is hard for families to believe their loved ones may commit suicide or die in accidents (ex: Don Kemp), I go by what the evidence says. I believe Danny was murdered based on the scientific evidence. But with Don Kemp, there is NO evidence to suggest he was murdered, so I go with the police saying he died from exposure.

[Mastermind]

I bet if you did a luminol analysis on my house, or any house, you'd find blood in different places (from former tenants, nose bleeds, cuts, etc)

In your bedroom or living room??? Kitchen maybe. But living quarters? How many aquaintances could be bleed enough in a living room to show up on luminol and provide an adequate test.

if they find another blood type in your living room or den. Matt C. I want you in the box, now!!!!! LOL!!!!!;)


I remember that the UM segment mentioned that Danny's girlfriend had witnessed Danny threatening to commit suicide, including even putting the gun to his head and then moving and and firing it at a wall.

This is only her story. It's quite possible she may have made this story up, due to the fact that she was in on the murder or was coerced by the actual murderer to say it.

Personally, I think this may have been an accidental shooting that was staged to look like a suicide. Some friends of Danny may have been horsing around and they fooled around with the gun and it went off, killing Danny.

Isn't this case now classified as a homicide? I seem to remember Stack mentioning it.

[mattc]

if they find another blood type in your living room or den. Matt C. I want you in the box, now!!!!! LOL!!!!!;)

Hehehee, I knew that would raise some eyebrows right after I wrote it;)

I get your point... I guess if there was a lot of blood found on a tv, and it was wiped clean, that is very odd and suspicious. I was thinking more of trace blood spots here and there in a person's house.

But I actually think you make a great point about the accidental shooting idea. That would make a lot of sense; friends panicked and staged the death to look like a suicide. Or perhaps even the girlfriend was there and it got ugly, who knows. But yeah, the accidental idea is a great theory.

[Oooga Chucka]

I don't know if it was suicide or murder, but watching the PI try to recreate the incident in all kinds of different positions was extremely uncomfortable to watch.

[egswanso]

I just watched this one the other day and honestly, I can't say what I think, because the segment was good at asking questions, but didn't really give the official story as much time to refute them. This is one where I'd like to see the actual reports, not just self-serving summaries of them (from both sides).

Many of the questions could have been answered by a good forensic autopsy, but it's unclear if that was done and, having been to Galesburg (where the death took place) and Knox Co. in general, I wouldn't think the local guys had the skills and experience to do the same, since there's just not that much violent crime down there.

[Clockworkhigh]

Murdered in my honest opinion. Isn't this the segment where the older neighbour swears up and down what day she saw Danny? Doesn't she say "I hate to admit it, but I know everyone's business". Who knows, she might be sncerely wrong. But either way I think Danny was shot by someone else. Wasn't there something else to do with blood being in a much different place on the carpet in the living room? This led me to believe he was shot and then moved to make it look like a suicide. Not sure how much more proof you need than that

[cocytus]

Just saw this segment on the unofficial and unnamed UM video site.

This appears to have been a suicide. If the coroner found GSR on the victim's hand (which oddly, no one mentions) then it was obviously a suicide. The additional blood "evidence" is either not due to the shooting or was found as the result of mistakes made by the independent lab.

The fact that no one has come forward as a "suspect" in this death even after all of this time makes it clear (at least to me) that this was a suicide, not a homicide.

[LaurierCrimmajor]

For me, there's a fine line between families just looking for any hope to hold onto, grasping at straws and trying to make sense out of tragedy, potentially making something out of nothing and allowing P.I.'s and witnesses to run them around the block AND WITH familiies who have a legitimate argument for foul play. ALOT of the families featured in UM fit into both categories, however this case, along with several others of this ilk that possess solid forensic evidence and logical doubt as to the actual accounting of what happened, coupled with subpar LE work, feels hinky to me.

I like to fencesit on cases that raise doubt and posit an "Unknown" COD conclusion, but thoroughly recommend that many of these cases(such as this one) require and deserve far closer analysis and scrutiny, especially above local PD resources.

[justins5256]

The more I think about it, the more I think this is another Rae Ann Mossor/Jeffrey Digmin type case. The circumstantial evidence strongly suggests suicide. The physical evidence suggests murder.

[MissFit29]

IIRC, Danny was type B blood, but they found type B and type O blood in the house. They found 2 blood types in the bathroom. They found 2 blood types in the pockets of Danny's JEANS. There was a ton of blood found on the TV (that had been cleaned - they found it with luminol or something). The trajectory of the bullet didn't match how they found Danny.

I'm siding with murder for this one.

I wonder what the circumstances were that caused Danny to lose/suspend his driver's license. That might have something to do with his death.

[TheCars1986]

I wonder what blood type Danny's parents are? That could explain the type O found in the house.

EDIT: Anyone else find it odd that the segment never mentioned any viable suspects or any reasons why anyone would want to murder Danny? And did anyone else think the man seen lurking around his house (a day after he was alleged to have killed himself) was simply a concerned friend of his checking up on him?

[NDAlum2003]

It looks like the plant that the Williams family owned is now out of business.

http://www.galesburg.com/news/business/x1549043209/Century-of-clothes-making