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View Full Version : Spin City: Michael J. Fox isn't telling the whole truth about stem cells in those ad


Janice
10-26-2006, 09:24 AM
http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/012/861hhanx.asp (http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/012/861hhanx.asp)

Spin City

Michael J. Fox isn't telling the whole truth about stem cells in those ads.

MICHAEL J. FOX is making a splash on television sets across Missouri, appearing in a stem cell commercial (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a9WB_PXjTBo) attacking Senator Jim Talent during Game 1 of the World Series. According to Fox, "Senator Jim Talent opposes expanding stem cell research. Senator Talent even wanted to criminalize the science that gives us a chance for hope." Of course Senator Talent has been a consistent supporter of increased funding for stem cell research that doesn't involve the destruction of human embryos and has only sought to criminalize human cloning, but one needn't let the facts get in the way. (And it is worth mention that Missouri has a bill on the State ballot that would allow the cloning of human beings and then require their destruction prior to gestation.)

Fox has also just released a similar ad attacking (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eYvySRbF3U8) Michael Steele in his race for the vacant Senate seat in Maryland. The reality, however, is that the only person in that race to have voted against (http://www.steeleformaryland.com/SETTINGTHERECORDSTRAIGHTCardinVotedAgainstStemCellResearchforPurePoliticalGain.htm) stem cell research is Steele's opponent, Ben Cardin.

In four other states, ads are attacking congressional Republicans (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q4tFk9WLjwM&eurl=) who voted against federal funding for embryonic stem cell research. The ads, paid for by the Democratic group Majority Action, attack Representatives Chris Chocola, Thelma Drake, Don Sherwood, and James Walsh. They all follow the same format: three healthy citizens tell of impending medical doom and how only embryonic stem cell research will save them. They conclude with these startling words: "Stem cell research could save lives, maybe yours or your family's, someone you love. Only Congressman Walsh said no. How come he thinks he gets to decide who lives and who dies; who's he?" (Apparently the irony of those who favor embryo-destruction accusing others of deciding "who lives and who dies" was lost on the ad's producers.)

These ads are repulsive. They play on the hopes and fears of million of Americans who are suffering from debilitating diseases, are caring for loved ones, and yearn for something, anything, to hold onto. They manipulate the public's emotions in the worst imaginable ways, promising them cures that are, in fact, quite uncertain, and pressuring them to forgo their own ethical convictions.

When emotions have subsided and right reasoning returns, one readily grasps three solid reasons to reject appeals for governmental funding of current methods of embryonic stem cell research: First, current methods are unethical as they destroy human beings in the embryonic stage of development. Second, embryonic stem cell research--contrary to all the hype claiming otherwise--doesn't show any signs of success in the near term, while adult stem cell research is curing diseases now. And third, methods of embryonic stem cell research may soon be available that will not require any human embryo destruction. That is, embryo destruction isn't only unethical: it's likely unnecessary.

The principled objection to current methods of embryonic stem cell research is that they all require the destruction of human embryos. Human embryos, as a matter of scientific fact, are human beings at a very early stage of development. For one to deny this basic biological truth isn't simply to be wrong, but to be unreasonable. The science is clear. While sperm and egg are both genetically and functionally parts of the adult parents, when a sperm fertilizes an egg and the respective pronuclei fuse; a genetically and functionally new, distinct, and unique human organism comes into existence. This embryonic human being possesses all of the internal resources necessary to guide him through further stages of development. The term embryo is a way of classifying the early human being, just as the terms fetus, newborn, infant, child, adolescent, adult, and octogenarian all refer to human beings at other stages. And even if the embryo is brought into existence by a process of cloning (for the unspoken reality of embryonic stem cell research is the necessity of cloning human embryos from the patient in order to have a genetic match and avoid auto-immune rejection), it is still the same exact biological organism as an embryo created by fertilization (if it weren't, the cloning procedure wouldn't be considered successful).

Those who are willing to accept these biological realities argue that the direct and intentional killing of human embryos isn't unethical because human embryos lack the requisite dignity to have a right to life. This argument, however, is doomed to fail. The argument typically runs that since human embryos aren't self-aware and can't think or even feel pleasure or pain, they don't have a personal life that would merit protection. Animal life alone isn't enough to warrant moral status; one needs higher mental personal life. But, if simply being a member of the human species is not enough to merit full and equal moral status, one will be hard pressed to explain why newborn babies posses a right to life that other (non-human) animals do not. Newborn babies do not exhibit any higher mental life than other animals. That is, a newborn human baby behaves in ways solely "animal" and not "personal." In fact, it isn't until at least age two that human babies begin to display any outward signs of a personal life. So, for someone to draw a moral line any place prior to age two would be arbitrary, as the frequent indicators all fail: why does the complete formation of a brain count, but not the incipient formation, for example? Why does incipient formation count, but not the formation of the precursor of the brain? Why does the precursor count, but not the precursor to the precursor, all the way back to the one-celled zygote that each of us began life as?

The reason we treat the one-celled human zygote as the subject of profound worth and dignity is because it does possess the radical (root) capacity for higher mental functions, even if that basic ability is unexercised and incipient. The human embryo, unlike the chimp embryo or the dog embryo or any other embryo or cellular structure, is unique in possessing the internal information and active disposition to develop himself into an animal with linguistic-intellectual powers ("personal" life). In other words, human beings possess rational capacities in virtue of the type of animal they are. A human being, as opposed to any other animal, is the type of being which has the potential for higher mental acts and a personal life, even though at various times those abilities may not be apparent for various reasons--for example, because one is asleep, ignorant, young, sick, or old. But none of these physical or mental attributes--consciousness, youth, ignorance, health, or age--can alter the intrinsic dignity of an individual human.

Besides the moral objection to embryo-destructive stem cell research, there are other reasons to be appalled by these recent ads, for there is good reason to be skeptical about the prospects of technological success for embryonic stem cell research. When an embryonic stem cell is created from a cell of the early embryo, that cell--left in the embryo of which it was a part--would have produced many different tissue types as the cells descended from it progressed through stages of higher specialization. That is, cells in the early embryo are precursors to entire biological systems, and not merely particular tissue types. And scientists are having significant difficulty forcing them to behave in other ways. When scientists try to manipulate them into embryonic stem cells (ESC), they tend to cause potentially dangerous tumors.

Dr. James Sherley, associate professor of biological engineering at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology (MIT), explained this just a few weeks ago (http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,20867,20557912-1702,00.html): "When you put them [ESC] in an environment where they can grow and develop, they make lots of different kind of tissues. This tumor formation property is an inherent feature of the cells. And all you have to do is simply inject them into an animal tissue--this happens at very high efficiency." These same conclusions were echoed just this week in a report (http://www.nature.com/nm/journal/vaop/ncurrent/abs/nm1495.html) in the journal Nature Medicine. The Washington Post summarized the conclusion aptly (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/10/22/AR2006102200325.html): "Injecting human embryonic stem cells into the brains of Parkinson's disease patients may cause tumors to form, U.S. researchers reported on Sunday." (Of course, Parkinson's disease is precisely what Michael J. Fox is suffering from and claiming embryonic stem cells will cure.) Currently, there are no solutions to this problem on the horizon. As Sherley put it: "And although some might say we can solve the tumor problem down the road, that's equivalent to saying we can solve the cancer problem, and we may, but that's a long time coming."

If you doubt this is the case, one need only look to the California Institute for Regenerative Medicine (CIRM)--the multi-billion dollar institute dedicated to embryonic stem-cell research and paid for by California tax-payers--and their recent proposed strategic report (http://www.mercurynews.com/multimedia/mercurynews/news/stemcell_report_100506.pdf). The report states: "it is unlikely that CIRM will be able to fully develop stem cell therapy for routine clinical use during the ten years of the plan. Within that time span, however, we will be able to advance therapies for several diseases to early stage clinical trials, and to have therapies for other diseases in the pipeline." For the next ten years, the best they can promise is "early stage clinical trials" and therapies "in the pipeline." The Mercury News reports (http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews/business/15683943.htm) that the Institute's president, Zach Hall, "predicted it might take 15 years before the institute's research results in a medical product." It is probably for these reasons that private investors have been so reluctant to invest in embryonic stem cell research, thus creating the greater need for governmental funding. If embryonic stem cell research really could deliver all that it promised, one has to wonder why there isn't a mad rush to invest now.

Meanwhile, adult stem cell therapies are healing patients now--despite the fact that they receive only a fraction of the funding. Professor Sherley argues that adult stem cells present greater promise for medicinal cures because they are already specialized into the tissue type needed, and--because they are harvested directly from the patient in need of therapy--they have the same genotype and thus avoid the risk of immune rejection (without the need for cloning or embryo-destruction). As Sherley put it: "If you have a problem with your liver, you need a liver stem cell, you don't need an embryonic stem cell." That is, while the best-case estimates put embryonic stem cell therapies at least 15 years away (if they ever arrive), adult stem cell therapies are here now. And they present none of the ethical dilemmas of embryonic stem cells. This is the research that should receive generous government funding.
Lastly, even if one is convinced that embryonic stem cell research is the best hope, one need not embrace human embryo destruction. If we are willing to wait just a little while longer, it appears that it may soon be possible to directly create embryonic-type (pluripotent) stem cells without creating, using, or destroying human embryos. Science itself may yet resolve this ethical impasse. There are currently two proposals on the table to accomplish just this. The first procedure, proposed by William Hurlbut, professor of Neurological Science at Stanford, is known as Altered Nuclear Transfer Oocyte Assisted Reprogramming (ANT-OAR) (http://www.alterednucleartransfer.com/). Garnering broad support both from the scientific community (from heavyweight stem cell researchers like Markus Grompe, director of the Oregon Stem Cell Center and a member of the board of the International Society for Stem Cell Research) and from the pro-life and Catholic communities (http://eppc.org/publications/pubID.2374/pub_detail.asp), many see it as the best path (in addition to the highly successful adult stem cell therapies) for moving forward.

The second proposal relies upon dedifferentiation (reprogramming) of an adult somatic cell back to a state of pluripotency. As the human being matures, his cells differentiate as they become highly specialized tissue types. Scientists are now working to dedifferentiate these adult cells and return them to a state prior to specialization. This procedure is much like ANT-OAR, but seeks to reprogram a somatic cell without any nuclear transfer and thus without need for any ova. Further research into both of these procedures should be met with broad support.

It is unfortunate that our highly politicized culture has created an atmosphere where honest discussion of the prospects and ethics of various methods of stem cell research is impossible and these political ads have brought that discourse to a new low. For not only do they play on the hopes and fears of millions of suffering Americans, but they provide them with false information while attacking those who support ethical research that shows great promise.

Fleet
10-26-2006, 06:30 PM
This is why I haven't replied about Rush on the main Chit Chat board. Michael J. Fox incorrectly says that Jim Talent is against stem cell research. This is wrong... he is only against it when embryos are used.

But, those on the Chit Chat board (you know, the "compassionate," "open-minded" liberals or whatever they are) choose to just call Rush names like "druggie," "pig man," "grade-A junk," "idiot," etc.

I don't think that Rush should have made his comment unless he knew for sure that M.J. Fox was purposedly exaggerating his movements.

Lex Luthor
10-26-2006, 07:08 PM
I don't think that Rush should have made his comment unless he knew for sure that M.J. Fox was purposedly exaggerating his movements.

Is that why Rush publicly apologized for a mistaken accusation. If "he knew for sure" that Fox was exaggerating then why backtrack?

Rush did not attack the issue or the spin he attacked the person/illness. Like I said before this guy has not come very far from his old TV "trash talk" ratings war with Morton Downy Jr.

Was there "spin" added to Fox's take of the situation? Probably, but how much in the political world is without spin. Politicians from both sides will skew facts and figures, play the semantics game or do whatever it takes to get "thier" side out there. I have no issue with Rush or anyone debating the issues but that is not what he did. Mind you I guess it depends on who's "spin" you choose to believe.

Janice
10-26-2006, 07:53 PM
Is that why Rush publicly apologized for a mistaken accusation. If "he knew for sure" that Fox was exaggerating then why backtrack?

Rush did not attack the issue or the spin he attacked the person/illness. Like I said before this guy has not come very far from his old TV "trash talk" ratings war with Morton Downy Jr.

Was there "spin" added to Fox's take of the situation? Probably, but how much in the political world is without spin. Politicians from both sides will skew facts and figures, play the semantics game or do whatever it takes to get "thier" side out there. I have no issue with Rush or anyone debating the issues but that is not what he did. Mind you I guess it depends on who's "spin" you choose to believe.
Rush did apologize for the 'acting' remark, but that's never enough for some. And Rush has been taking on the issue of the misleading (at best) political ad. He's been talking about it all week long. Finding the lies in the Fox ad is like fishing in a barrel.

Rush made a good point today. In 2003, while accepting an award, George Clooney stated "Charlton Heston announced again today that he is suffering from Alzheimer's." Heston does have Alzheimer's disease.

Clooney's issue with Heston is that he was the President of the NRA. When asked if he would apologize for his remark, Clooney replied, "I don't care. Charlton Heston is the head of the National Rifle Association. He deserves whatever anyone says about him."

No outrage from the same crowd who's screaming about Limbaugh.

Fleet
10-26-2006, 09:12 PM
Is that why Rush publicly apologized for a mistaken accusation. If "he knew for sure" that Fox was exaggerating then why backtrack?

Rush did not attack the issue or the spin he attacked the person/illness. Like I said before this guy has not come very far from his old TV "trash talk" ratings war with Morton Downy Jr.

Was there "spin" added to Fox's take of the situation? Probably, but how much in the political world is without spin. Politicians from both sides will skew facts and figures, play the semantics game or do whatever it takes to get "thier" side out there. I have no issue with Rush or anyone debating the issues but that is not what he did. Mind you I guess it depends on who's "spin" you choose to believe.
As I said, unless Rush knew for sure that Michael was acting (and Rush doesn't know), then I think he shouldn't have made that remark.
In other words, I agree with the liberals here (for once). But there is no need to call Rush a "pig man" (whatever that means) or "druggie."

Lex Luthor
10-26-2006, 10:53 PM
Rush did apologize for the 'acting' remark, but that's never enough for some.

Consider the source of the apology, this guy has made a career out of being a blow hard who consitently puts his foot in his oversized mouth. It works for him much like Denis Rodman, Howard Stern, etc... thats his shtick.

I doubt he could care less if the apology is accepted (if it is even geniune) because in the business he is in the is no such thing as bad press. The more attention it brings the more people watch.

Rush made a good point today. In 2003, while accepting an award, George Clooney stated "Charlton Heston announced again today that he is suffering from Alzheimer's." Heston does have Alzheimer's disease.

Clooney's issue with Heston is that he was the President of the NRA. When asked if he would apologize for his remark, Clooney replied, "I don't care. Charlton Heston is the head of the National Rifle Association. He deserves whatever anyone says about him."

No outrage from the same crowd who's screaming about Limbaugh.

OMG! You have got to be kidding.:rofl: :brent

Comparing this with what Clooney said and the lack of outrage? This is not even close to "apples to apples". If someone made a personal attack against Jerry Springer and then the exact same attack was made against Montel/Oprah of course there would be different levels of outrage over the same incident. People would say about time someone hit Springer but roast the same person if it was done to the others, It comes from a level of public respect.

Once again consider the sources. Rush can cry foul all he wants but there is no comparisin and the fact that educated people can even buy into that crap is mind boggling.

Lex Luthor
10-26-2006, 11:03 PM
As I said, unless Rush knew for sure that Michael was acting (and Rush doesn't know), then I think he shouldn't have made that remark.
In other words, I agree with the liberals here (for once). But there is no need to call Rush a "pig man" (whatever that means) or "druggie."

My Bad

I misread your original post and thought it was defending Rush saying that he "knew". It is nice to see someone from the "other side" actually admit the actions were wrong rather than justifying them because Michael's views are one sided.

I really am going to have to stop agreeing with you though because people are going to start talking of the apocolypse.

Janice
10-26-2006, 11:16 PM
OMG! You have got to be kidding.:rofl: :brent

Comparing this with what Clooney said and the lack of outrage? This is not even close to "apples to apples". If someone made a personal attack against Jerry Springer and then the exact same attack was made against Montel/Oprah of course there would be different levels of outrage over the same incident. People would say about time someone hit Springer but roast the same person if it was done to the others, It comes from a level of public respect.
OMG! I'm like so totally not kidding!! Like really, I'm for real. So real, that's it's totally AWESOME! I'll even put up these smilies cuz they're soooo koooool!
:rofl: :brent


Bigtime Liberal (Clooney) makes a tasteless public remark about a former actor afflicted with a debilitating disease (Heston/Alzheimers). Clooney refuses to apologize, and makes another arrogant statement. No outrage.

Bigtime Conservative (Limbaugh) makes a tasteless public remark about a former actor afflicted with a debilitating disease (Fox/Parkinsons). Limbaugh apologizes. Tidal wave of outrage.

Whatever was I thinking comparing the two.

The hypocrisy is astounding.

Lex Luthor
10-26-2006, 11:47 PM
Limbaugh apologizes.



Limbaugh cries wolf again. Big difference between these 2 situations is that Limbaugh's statements are far from a "one of".

Limbaugh vs Fox, public perception is big mouth picking on nice guy
Clooney vs Heston, public perception is big mouth blasting another big mouth

I don't condone what Clooney did either but again public out cry is based on the sources as much as it is the actions themselves


The hypocrisy is astounding.

I never said you were hypocritical, I just find it amusing that Rush tries to be the victim of political outcry when he is just a victim of his big mouth. Justifying someones actions because they are polar opposite in view or because someone else did it is a cop out.

Janice
10-26-2006, 11:58 PM
Limbaugh vs Fox, public perception is big mouth picking on nice guy
Clooney vs Heston, public perception is big mouth blasting another big mouth

Clooney made fun of Heston's disease. That's cool with you because you don't like Heston's stance on things?

Now you're picking on a poor guy with Alzheimer's. You're no better than Clooney or Rush.

Shame on you. :nonono:

Lex Luthor
10-27-2006, 12:07 AM
Clooney made fun of Heston's disease. That's cool with you because you don't like Heston's stance on things?

Now you're picking on a poor guy with Alzheimer's. You're no better than Clooney or Rush.

Shame on you. :nonono:

I don't condone what Clooney did either but again public out cry is based on the sources as much as it is the actions themselves



What part of this says I agree with picking on someones disease? Like I said "public perception" determines alot of public outcry. I personally think both attacks are despicable, I am not justifying the acts. Just because Clooney was a Jack@$$ doesn't mean that now Rush's actions are justified.

Janice
10-27-2006, 12:18 AM
What part of this says I agree with picking on someones disease?

Right here.

Clooney vs Heston, public perception is big mouth blasting another big mouth

I don't condone what Clooney did either but again public out cry is based on the sources as much as it is the actions themselves
Public perception? Heston has many many admirers. So the libbers don't like him (that big mouth of his and all), so it's okay.

Is this how you debate? You distance yourself from saying crap by putting said crap in the mouth of a third party (public perception).

How about YOU, how do you feel about what Clooney said about Heston's disease at an Award's show? You've told me what public perception thinks. Let's hear what you think, other than a tame, "I don't condone it". You're plenty pissed at Rush. Fresh out of outrage for Clooney?

Lex Luthor
10-27-2006, 12:44 AM
How about YOU, how do you feel about what Clooney said about Heston's disease at an Award's show? You've told me what public perception thinks. Let's hear what you think, other than a tame, "I don't condone it".

Okay just because you asked so nicely

I personally think both attacks are despicable, I am not justifying the acts. Just because Clooney was a Jack@$$ doesn't mean that now Rush's actions are justified.

I am not the one trying to justify someones actions you are, not once have you said Rush was out of line. Instead you pull bait and switch politics and focus the blame elsewhere.


Is this how you debate? You distance yourself from saying crap by putting said crap in the mouth of a third party (public perception).



This is not even a politics debate this is common decency, I will concede 100% that there was political motivation and "spin" behind Fox's speach but my issue is the attack on the disease.

Seriously pull politics out of the equation and it is clear that Limbaugh is 100% wrong in the attack. Just look on the Chit Chat (public perception) section where politics is not a factor and the response is overwhelming that Limbaugh is a jerk. But come to this section and "spin" is put on it to justify his actions. There is no justification for either action but it is not me that keeps looking for a way to justify it.

Janice
10-27-2006, 01:14 AM
Your condemnation of Clooney's remarks came in very late. In the same post where you asked me where you asked me where you were picking on him.

I did say that Rush was wrong. Even pointed out that he apologized.

"Bigtime Conservative (Limbaugh) makes a tasteless public remark about a former actor afflicted with a debilitating disease (Fox/Parkinsons)."

No bait and switch. Just pointing out the hypocrisy. Clooney was every bit as wrong as Rush, and it goes ignored. I'm not justifying either of their actions.

In debate, people compare. It's done all the time.

If you think the outrage, some of it even here, or anywhere isn't political, you're naive. Rush's initial comments were wrong, but the same people who are going ballistic on him make excuses for others. That makes it political.

Lex Luthor
10-27-2006, 01:51 AM
Rush's initial comments were wrong.

That is all I was looking for, you did say in this post that he apologized but not that you felt he was wrong (perhaps you said it in another post that I did not see)

I agree that everything gets turned and twisted in the political world but often people are blinded to thier loyalty to one party and "right and wrong" gets skewed into "right and left".

We have 3 parties in Canada (Liberal,Conservative and Democrat) and in 18 years of voting only once have I voted thinking this was the best party. Every other time it has been a lessor of 2 (or 3) evils. All parties have corruption and scandal but far too often "blind loyalty" reigns supreme and even when your party (generalization... yours,mine, his, etc...) makes a massive blunder it turns into a bait and switch game. I thought that was where this post was going.

Janice
10-27-2006, 10:16 AM
That is all I was looking for, you did say in this post that he apologized but not that you felt he was wrong (perhaps you said it in another post that I did not see)
Stating that someone makes a tasteless public statement about someone's debilitating illness tells you that I think it's wrong. I didn't know I had to spoonfeed you. Of course I think it's wrong.

It's not like I called him a bigmouth who deserved it or anything like that. :D
I agree that everything gets turned and twisted in the political world but often people are blinded to thier loyalty to one party and "right and wrong" gets skewed into "right and left".

We have 3 parties in Canada (Liberal,Conservative and Democrat) and in 18 years of voting only once have I voted thinking this was the best party. Every other time it has been a lessor of 2 (or 3) evils. All parties have corruption and scandal but far too often "blind loyalty" reigns supreme and even when your party (generalization... yours,mine, his, etc...) makes a massive blunder it turns into a bait and switch game. I thought that was where this post was going.
Well here, when we debate we use other examples to point out hyprocrisy, and it's not bait and switch. Same thing with the recent Foley scandal. I don't know of a single conservative who defended his actions, but many pointed out the actions of Rep. Gerry Studds who had sex, not on the internet, had sex with a young male page. It's a double standard.

Lex Luthor
10-27-2006, 11:56 AM
Stating that someone makes a tasteless public statement about someone's debilitating illness tells you that I think it's wrong. I didn't know I had to spoonfeed you. Of course I think it's wrong.

It's not like I called him a bigmouth who deserved it or anything like that. :D



Touche

I must have missed it in all that rhetoric and spin I was sifting through.

Once again I never said Heston deserved it but I guess putting words in someones mouth is also something to be expected in a political debate.

I just made a comparisin between personality type and the "public outcry" attached to the incident

gilligan fanatic
10-27-2006, 02:01 PM
Michael J Fox is more popular with the younger crowd. Charleton Heston is older and I don't think many people know exactly who he is. I happen to be a big fan of both. Rush made a mistake, he apologized, something that some people will never do.

Bobby F.
10-27-2006, 02:10 PM
What Clooney said was more of a personal attack than what Rush said:

"George Clooney joked that 'Charlton Heston announced again today that he is suffering from Alzheimer's.' Clooney still had a chance to apologize for the bad humor day. When questioned about the remark by New York Newsday, Clooney sputtered: '[I don't care. Charlton Heston is the head of the National Rifle Association. He deserves whatever anyone says about him.'"

Rush did not attack Fox personally. Clooney did yet there was never the outcry over it. Double standard?? Hypocrisy??

Lex Luthor
10-27-2006, 02:30 PM
Clooney is a Jack@$$ for what he said but it does not excuse what Rush did. This thread was about the comments made about Fox but it quickly turns into ... Clooney did something worse so lets shift the focus.

Bottom line Fox is seen as more popular and than Heston by the public and therefor the outcry is larger. Fair no, double standard yup, reality absolutely.

Bobby F.
10-27-2006, 03:30 PM
Clooney is a Jack@$$ for what he said but it does not excuse what Rush did. This thread was about the comments made about Fox but it quickly turns into ... Clooney did something worse so lets shift the focus.

Bottom line Fox is seen as more popular and than Heston by the public and therefor the outcry is larger. Fair no, double standard yup, reality absolutely.

No one is trying to shift anything and no one is making excuses. The point of a double standard and the hypocrisy of it all is what is trying to be shown. I still think that people are reacting with ther heart than with their minds. The majority of people are only going by what they here from the nightly news. Hate Rush all you want but take the time to read the whole statement before you label him some crusader against the sick.

Bobby F.
10-27-2006, 03:33 PM
I'm curious...if Fox had come out and said "He's right. I've been off my meds to prove a point", would everyone still be blasting away at Rush?? Fox has done this in the past so speculating as to if he did it again is fair play.

Janice
10-27-2006, 06:20 PM
Clooney is a Jack@$$ for what he said but it does not excuse what Rush did. This thread was about the comments made about Fox but it quickly turns into ... Clooney did something worse so lets shift the focus.
People draw comparisons all the time. What part of that don't you get. Nobody's shifting the focus. Just pointing out the hyprocrisy of those with selective outrage. It ties in. Think about it.
Bottom line Fox is seen as more popular and than Heston by the public and therefor the outcry is larger. Fair no, double standard yup, reality absolutely.
That's not the reason. Heston is a legend and every bit as famous as Fox.

Lex Luthor
10-27-2006, 06:35 PM
Heston is a legend and every bit as famous as Fox.

I will concede that but liked/respected also comes into play.

Princess Diana vs Queen Elizabeth (or better Prince Charles)

Every bit as recongisable but slander both of them equally and see if there is a difference in public outcry. It is not hypocrasy, public outcry has a lot to do with being a popularity contest and Fox wins vs Heston that is why the difference in outcry.

Janice
10-27-2006, 06:38 PM
I will concede that but liked/respected also comes into play.

Princess Diana vs Queen Elizabeth (or better Prince Charles)

Every bit as recongisable but slander both of them equally and see if there is a difference in public outcry. It is not hypocrasy, public outcry has a lot to do with being a popularity contest and Fox wins vs Heston that is why the difference in outcry.
You can't speak for others. Heston is loved my millions. The libs may hate him, but you're painting with a mighty broad brush there.

Lex Luthor
10-27-2006, 06:45 PM
You can't speak for others. Heston is loved my millions. The libs may hate him, but you're painting with a mighty broad brush there.

Listen to the outcry that speaks for the others not me.

Janice
10-27-2006, 06:47 PM
Listen to the outcry that speaks for the others not me.
Right, I'm hearing a bunch of pissed off libs who think what Rush said was horrible. Those same libs had nothing to say when Clooney did the same thing, if not worse. At least Rush apologized.

Lex Luthor
10-27-2006, 06:55 PM
Right, I'm hearing a bunch of pissed off libs who think what Rush said was horrible. Those same libs had nothing to say when Clooney did the same thing, if not worse. At least Rush apologized.

I got it now, only the libs are offended. Only the libs complain and Rush is a good guy.

Sorry it took awhile for the brain washing to kick in.

Bobby F.
10-27-2006, 07:00 PM
I got it now, only the libs are offended. Only the libs complain and Rush is a good guy.

Sorry it took awhile for the brain washing to kick in.

For someone who claims to see both sides....:crazy: There have been many repubs that have come out against what Rush said. Yet no one came out against what Clooney said.

Janice
10-27-2006, 07:02 PM
I got it now, only the libs are offended. Only the libs complain and Rush is a good guy.

Sorry it took awhile for the brain washing to kick in.
No, nice try though. Most conservatives think what Rush initially said was wrong, but he did apologize. It's the liberals who keep piling on.

Lex Luthor
10-27-2006, 07:19 PM
For someone who claims to see both sides....:crazy: There have been many repubs that have come out against what Rush said. Yet no one came out against what Clooney said.

One the incident was 3 years ago and only coming back to light because of Rush, get over it. If 3 years (damn even 1 year down the road) people are still complaining about Rush's statement I would tell them to get over it too.

Two I do not speak for the libs or the rebubs, I speak for ME and I have stated that I think both were despicable.

Bobby F.
10-27-2006, 07:22 PM
One the incident was 3 years ago and only coming back to light because of Rush, get over it. If 3 years (damn even 1 year down the road) people are still complaining about Rush's statement I would tell them to get over it too.

Two I do not speak for the libs or the rebubs, I speak for ME and I have stated that I think both were despicable.

So what's your point of even commenting anymore?? You've made your point. If we want to dwell on the hypocrisy of the left, let us have our fun.:happyface

Lex Luthor
10-27-2006, 07:25 PM
It's the liberals who keep piling on.

That I agree 100%, the piling on is being done and that is the nature of politics. Libs are not the only ones who can be accused of piling on but in this instance I agree with you.

Lamont
10-27-2006, 08:30 PM
i will say this

CHARLTON HESTON was not just making a commercial- he was the president of the most powerful conservative lobby in the nation, the NRA -- this IS A POLITICAL position and he was a politician

MUCH MUCH different than Michael J. Fox, a private citizen making a few commercials to show the effects of his illness

HESTON made himself a political target and was a politician for a huge lobby
FOX was not, is not and has interest to be'

BIG DIFFERENCE

Janice
10-27-2006, 10:20 PM
i will say this

CHARLTON HESTON was not just making a commercial- he was the president of the most powerful conservative lobby in the nation, the NRA -- this IS A POLITICAL position and he was a politician

MUCH MUCH different than Michael J. Fox, a private citizen making a few commercials to show the effects of his illness

HESTON made himself a political target and was a politician for a huge lobby
FOX was not, is not and has interest to be'

BIG DIFFERENCE
Heston was a politician? I must have missed that election. So, are you saying he deserved to have his Alzheimer's joked about at an Award's show?

Fox made a political ad....you know, for a political candidate. He's in the ring.

Lamont
10-28-2006, 08:48 AM
head of the NRA IS a political position, its the presidency of the most powerful lobby group in the nation

if that aint political i dont know what is

Janice
10-28-2006, 10:23 AM
head of the NRA IS a political position, its the presidency of the most powerful lobby group in the nation

if that aint political i dont know what is
No, it's not a political position. The NRA, much like other privately funded groups like Planned Parenthood or the ACLU, has enormous have political clout, but the President of the NRA is not an elected politician. Positions are voted from within.

You still haven't answered my question. Do you think Heston deserved to have his Alzheimer's joked about at an Award's show?

jie3
10-28-2006, 10:47 AM
I am in no way in favor of what Clooney said, it's sickening.

BUT, how anyone can compare MJF (a man campaigning for the cure to a devastating disease) to Heston (the man who took his NRA show to Denver 10 DAYS after the Combine tragedy) is beyond me.

The insults they both recieved were very wrong, but as human beings go, they are on a very different par.

J

Janice
10-28-2006, 10:52 AM
I am in no way in favor of what Clooney said, it's sickening.

BUT, how anyone can compare MJF (a man campaigning for the cure to a devastating disease) to Heston (the man who took his NRA show to Denver 10 DAYS after the Combine tragedy) is beyond me.

The insults they both recieved were very wrong, but as human beings go, they are on a very different par.

J
Someone's been watching too much Mickey Moore. Here's the truth.

http://www.hardylaw.net/Truth_About_Bowling.html

Lamont
10-28-2006, 02:24 PM
1. despite NOT BEING elected it IS a politcal position, the Ambassador to China is NOT an elected position either BUT its still politcal

2. i think all these groups, NRA, NOW, ACLU etc are all political positions and the leaders are fair game

3. NO peronally, i did not think it was appropriate when clooney said what he said, but one has nothing to do with the other---

i mean so clooney said something years ago, so does that excuse rush saying something now?

the issue before us is rush limbaugh, and to go back several years and try to divert it to the clooney issue is just an avoidance of the problem

we can do that for ANY ISSUE, just change the topic at whim to a similar issue from years ago-- but what does that serve? isnt it wiser to deal with what happens now and not use the past to excuse the present?

Janice
10-28-2006, 05:10 PM
Charlton Heston was never a politician. End of story. Ambassadors are appointed by the party in office.

As for your other remarks, you'll have to read up on this thread. Everything has been addressed, and I'm not retyping.

jie3
10-28-2006, 08:48 PM
Someone's been watching too much Mickey Moore. Here's the truth.

http://www.hardylaw.net/Truth_About_Bowling.html

Actually, here's the truth, I've highlighted the Heston part near the bottom:

http://64.233.183.104/search?q=cache:VclB-IYaOnoJ:www.michaelmoore.com/words/wackoattacko/+heston+columbine&hl=en&gl=uk&ct=clnk&cd=3

J

Janice
10-28-2006, 08:55 PM
Actually, here's the truth, I've highlighted the Heston part near the bottom:

http://64.233.183.104/search?q=cache:VclB-IYaOnoJ:www.michaelmoore.com/words/wackoattacko/+heston+columbine&hl=en&gl=uk&ct=clnk&cd=3

J
My link is factual. Moore is a proven liar.

jie3
10-28-2006, 11:57 PM
My link is factual. Moore is a proven liar.

Factual? Hardy Law!

Yeah, real reliable, I love the part on the site about the biggest threat to Western civilization being Barney the Dinosaur, Damn that conniving big pink monster. :D

Hardy Law:lol: More like Laurel and Hardy Law :happyface

Janice
10-29-2006, 12:08 AM
Factual? Hardy Law!

Yeah, real reliable, I love the part on the site about the biggest threat to Western civilization being Barney the Dinosaur, Damn that conniving big pink monster. :D

Hardy Law:lol: More like Laurel and Hardy Law :happyface
You do know that was a satirical piece on Barney, don't you? You thought he was serious? :lol:

Yeah, HardyLaw. A lawyer and author.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_T._Hardy

jie3
10-29-2006, 12:30 AM
You do know that was a satirical piece on Barney, don't you? You thought he was serious? :lol:

Yeah, HardyLaw. A lawyer and author.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_T._Hardy

Oh! a Lawyer, well that changes everything. We all know that lawyers are famous for telling the truth :lol:

That was satirical? Sheesh, must have been the lack of 'funny' that made me miss it.

:D

Janice
10-29-2006, 12:33 AM
That was satirical? Sheesh, must have been the lack of 'funny' that made me miss it.
That fact that you even thought it was serious is funny. Funny to me. For you, sad.

jie3
10-29-2006, 01:38 AM
That fact that you even thought it was serious is funny. Funny to me. For you, sad.

:smooch: