Tom Cruise vs. Kirk Cameron

[Dean Winchester]

does anyone else think we should lock these two in a cage for a week? Tom is the worst Scientologist celebrity and Kirk is so obsessively "better than you" about being a Christian that he almost makes Lisa Whelchel look like a Pagan. Tom will do all he can to recruit everyone to Scientology and Kirk has a website telling you you're going to hell and God hates you if you've sinned and aren't as perfect as he is.

Would this not be a pay-per-view deathmatch you'd love to see? they're both so annoying and judgmental and maybe they'd both kick each others butt so hard that there'd be nothing left for either to kick, lol.

[Karen*]

does anyone else think we should lock these two in a cage for a week? Tom is the worst Scientologist celebrity and Kirk is so obsessively "better than you" about being a Christian that he almost makes Lisa Whelchel look like a Pagan. Tom will do all he can to recruit everyone to Scientology and Kirk has a website telling you you're going to hell and God hates you if you've sinned and aren't as perfect as he is.

Would this not be a pay-per-view deathmatch you'd love to see? they're both so annoying and judgmental and maybe they'd both kick each others butt so hard that there'd be nothing left for either to kick, lol.
I didn't know Kirk Cameron was like that. I knew he was a DEVOUT Christian, but not a RADICAL Christian. =/

I think I'd root for him though if he fought against Tom Cruise. :lol:

[Stuck In The '70's]

I don't think Kirk Cameron is that bad. He made some mistakes right after he converted but he's been out of the public eye for the most part since the early 90's.

[Dean Winchester]

I don't think Kirk Cameron is that bad. He made some mistakes right after he converted but he's been out of the public eye for the most part since the early 90's.

he has a website where the entire jist of it is "you're going to hell if you've done any sins. God hates those who haven't been perfect". People like him give Christians as a whole a bad name and I'd say he's just as bad as Tom.

[ABlairican Pie]

does anyone else think we should lock these two in a cage for a week? Tom is the worst Scientologist celebrity and Kirk is so obsessively "better than you" about being a Christian that he almost makes Lisa Whelchel look like a Pagan. Tom will do all he can to recruit everyone to Scientology and Kirk has a website telling you you're going to hell and God hates you if you've sinned and aren't as perfect as he is.

Would this not be a pay-per-view deathmatch you'd love to see? they're both so annoying and judgmental and maybe they'd both kick each others butt so hard that there'd be nothing left for either to kick, lol.Lisa a pagan??!!! Lemme join the heathen revelry!!!!!! :cheers: :rock: :guitar: party: :drink:

Yeah, yeah, I know, LIKE a pagan. BUT STILL that would be awesome!!!!

[Dean Winchester]

lol @ the thought Lisa and her kids having a ritual in the backyard dancing to "Lime In The Coconut" like in Practical Magic.

[Janice]

he has a website where the entire jist of it is "you're going to hell if you've done any sins. God hates those who haven't been perfect". People like him give Christians as a whole a bad name and I'd say he's just as bad as Tom.
I'm not calling you a liar, but do you have a link for that quote? I couldn't find it.

[ABlairican Pie]

lol @ the thought Lisa and her kids having a ritual in the backyard dancing to "Lime In The Coconut" like in Practical Magic. :lol: :banana: :mango:

OMG, I just checked out the Kirk Cameron website, The Way of the Master, and he had this list of questions, if you broke any of the Ten Commandments, then do you think you're going to heaven?? I checked yes to all of them.

Sorry, Kirk. You were so much better on Growing Pains. ohno:

Seriously Kirk, did you get any hot flashes when Julie McCullough was on the show?? :grineyes:

[ABlairican Pie]

I'm not calling you a liar, but do you have a link for that quote? I couldn't find it.
http://www.wayofthemaster.com/

[Karen*]

http://www.wayofthemaster.com/
OMG, the first ten seconds of the video already annoyed me. ohno:

[Janice]

He's a devout Christian. What he's saying sounds like an average sermon heard in a Church.

[Dean Winchester]

Seriously Kirk, did you get any hot flashes when Julie McCullough was on the show?? :grineyes:

lol, I think she was the beginning of his "differentness". He had her fired because he found out that she was a Playboy bunny. What a judgmental loser. Come on, if you took ANY heterosexual 19 year old red-blooded male and asked them if they would love to co-star with a hot Playboy bunny, 99.99927836% of them wouldn't hesitate to say "HELL YES!!!", yet Kirk got the wish everyone else his age wanted and was too good and had her fired.

[Dean Winchester]

He's a devout Christian. What he's saying sounds like an average sermon heard in a Church.

well, I think people don't want to hear preachiness from a celebrity. Sorta like people don't want politics from their celebrities. None of the pastors at the church I go to are anywhere as harsh or judgmental as Kirk is. Kirk says if you believe that God is loving and forgiving, you're worshipping a false idol and that is a sin in itself.

[Janice]

well, I think people don't want to hear preachiness from a celebrity. Sorta like people don't want politics from their celebrities. None of the pastors at the church I go to are anywhere as harsh or judgmental as Kirk is. Kirk says if you believe that God is loving and forgiving, you're worshipping a false idol and that is a sin in itself.
I've heard some really strict sermons in my days. Is Kirk still a celebrity these days? I haven't seen him in anything. I do know towards the end of Growing Pains, he became a real pain in the ass about scripts being sanitized to the point of being nothing but squeaky clean.

Still, he's nowhere in Tom Cruise's league in my opinion. Tom's insane. Kirk just appears to be an intensely devout Christian.

[TJL]

I already know I'm going to Hell. I don't need Mike Seaver to tell me the obvious.

;)

[Dean Winchester]

scary thing is, at one time, Tom was as devout a Catholic as he is a Scientologist... imagine if Mimi Rodgers didn't brainwash him, him and Kirk would be best buddies

[Janice]

scary thing is, at one time, Tom was as devout a Catholic as he is a Scientologist... imagine if Mimi Rodgers didn't brainwash him, him and Kirk would be best buddies
Mimi got him into it?

[Dean Winchester]

Mimi got him into it?

from what I heard, when Tom got married to Mimi in 1987, he still considered himself a Catholic. Mimi was a hardcore Scientologist and influenced Tom to join the cult, kinda like Tom is with Katie these days

[Pus$y Galore]

I've heard some really strict sermons in my days. Is Kirk still a celebrity these days? I haven't seen him in anything. I do know towards the end of Growing Pains, he became a real pain in the ass about scripts being sanitized to the point of being nothing but squeaky clean.

Still, he's nowhere in Tom Cruise's league in my opinion. Tom's insane. Kirk just appears to be an intensely devout Christian.


Actually I'm sure he has a show on some Christian channel currently running. I'll look out for what channel it is (in the 260s somewhere on my Dishnet). I know the show is called "Kirk Cameron". I've never tuned in myself. I think I did hear of some friction with him and the rest of the cast of Growing Pains until some "truce" or something was struck. From what I gather, it was to stop him from preaching to them. I don't know how radical or devout he is, but he did go through some period of really trying to spread the word so to speak.

One way or another, nobody listens to somebody going totally overboard on ANY subject - eventually people want you to shut your trap no matter what the topic is! ;) < picturing Cliff Clavin and his Florida trip and history >

[Janice]

from what I heard, when Tom got married to Mimi in 1987, he still considered himself a Catholic. Mimi was a hardcore Scientologist and influenced Tom to join the cult, kinda like Tom is with Katie these days
Wow. You know, it's a miracle that he didn't get Nicole Kidman into Scientology. They were together for 10 years. They have two kids. I wonder if there are any issues on their religious upbringing between Tom and Nicole.

[*Pleasant Tomorrow*]

Ew, I didn't know Kirk was that annoying. What a stupid site.

[Pus$y Galore]

Wow. You know, it's a miracle that he didn't get Nicole Kidman into Scientology. They were together for 10 years. They have two kids. I wonder if there are any issues on their religious upbringing between Tom and Nicole.

I've wondered that - especially since finding out that Mimi had been a Scientologist (I never knew that before). It still could be the reason for their breakup - not necessarily an affair. You never know with that cryptic, "Nik knows the reason". hmmmmmm...

And yah, wonder if its a problem still because especially on this high, he's got to be feeding it to the kids.

[Janice]

One way or another, nobody listens to somebody going totally overboard on ANY subject - eventually people want you to shut your trap no matter what the topic is! ;) < picturing Cliff Clavin and his Florida trip and history >
:lol: Or Cliff Clavin on ANYTHING. Let's not forget his potatoes that looked like people. :crazy:

[Pus$y Galore]

:lol: Or Cliff Clavin on ANYTHING. Let's not forget his potatoes that looked like people. :crazy:

:rofl: I LOVED that one! OMG

Yup - his long-winded Ponce Deleond (sp?) and Richard Nixon potato head! :lol:

[PZelda]

:rofl: I LOVED that one! OMG

Yup - his long-winded Ponce Deleond (sp?) and Richard Nixon potato head! :lol:
:rofl: I LOVE it when Cliff goes off on a tangent about ANYTHING on Cheers. They all wanted to kick his ass after a while. Poor Cliff, just doesn't know when to shut up. :lol:

[Janice]

:rofl: I LOVE it when Cliff goes off on a tangent about ANYTHING on [i}Cheers[/i]. They all wanted to kick his ass after a while. Poor Cliff, just doesn't know when to shut up. :lol:
Well, it's a little known fact that....(insert diatribe here).

[Dean Winchester]

Wow. You know, it's a miracle that he didn't get Nicole Kidman into Scientology. They were together for 10 years. They have two kids. I wonder if there are any issues on their religious upbringing between Tom and Nicole.

well, Nicole has always come off as a strong-willed female. Katie wants to be all things to all people, Kidman on the other hand, has always come off like she has a stronger sense of self. I think she probably had a heart to heart with Tom about "it's great that you're a Scientologist, but don't push it on me, I'm not interested" and he backed down. Katie seems like the type who will try any drug handed to her because of peer pressure.

[Pus$y Galore]

:rofl: I LOVE it when Cliff goes off on a tangent about ANYTHING on [i}Cheers[/i]. They all wanted to kick his ass after a while. Poor Cliff, just doesn't know when to shut up. :lol:

I know! I was trying to think of other specific ones to list, but he's got such verbal diarrhea they all blend together so couldn't come up with anything! :lol:

I used to work with a guy like that and we called him Cliff. What a loser! Didn't smoke, but he'd carry a lighter around so it was handy to have if a lady needed her cigarette lit! His big come on to a chick would be to show her coin and card tricks. :rofl: I used to call him Huckleberry Hound right to his face and he thought it was a riot. Wore pants and white socks like Cliffy too! :lol:

[Pus$y Galore]

well, Nicole has always come off as a strong-willed female. Katie wants to be all things to all people, Kidman on the other hand, has always come off like she has a stronger sense of self. I think she probably had a heart to heart with Tom about "it's great that you're a Scientologist, but don't push it on me, I'm not interested" and he backed down. Katie seems like the type who will try any drug handed to her because of peer pressure.

Which I think is another reason why a guy his age would be interested in a very young woman - they're easier to "mold" into the woman you want. I've seen it in other relationships. Cruise just never struck me as someone who wanted to control a wife because of his first two marriages (then again, they didn't work did they!?) :rolleyes:

[Dean Winchester]

don't forget about Rose Nyland and her 8,000 St. Olaf stories, lol

[Pus$y Galore]

don't forget about Rose Nyland and her 8,000 St. Olaf stories, lol


Yah!! There's another one!! :lol:

Edith Bunker - and Archie would mime a suicide! :crazy:

Or Barney Fife with some of his run-ons!

[barwars]

Kirk Cameron is an ass because he makes Christianity evil. After reading that site, I sincerely hate him.

Tom Cruise just believes in a crazy religion, so he's just making dumb people look dumb. He's still an ass, but I'd rather have Tom around than Kirk Cameron.

[Hollow]

i saw his show on a christian channel and i was lyk woaaaaahhh ewe mean the guy on growing pains :grr:

[PZelda]

don't forget about Rose Nyland and her 8,000 St. Olaf stories, lol
And there isn't even a St. Olaf in MN. :lol:

[Pus$y Galore]

i saw his show on a christian channel and i was lyk woaaaaahhh ewe mean the guy on growing pains :grr:

I heard that's why he no longer wanted to be on Growing Pains - he felt the character of Mike was too much of a "sinner" and didn't want to portray that to youth that he might be influencing. :rolleyes: puke:

[Dean Winchester]

Kirk Cameron is an ass because he makes Christianity evil. After reading that site, I sincerely hate him.

Tom Cruise just believes in a crazy religion, so he's just making dumb people look dumb. He's still an ass, but I'd rather have Tom around than Kirk Cameron.

I agree. Sad thing is, Kirk worships a different God than most Christians I know. Kirk worships an impatient, hatefilled, angry God, not someone who believes in redemption and salvation.

[dawsongirl]

does anyone else think we should lock these two in a cage for a week? Tom is the worst Scientologist celebrity and Kirk is so obsessively "better than you" about being a Christian that he almost makes Lisa Whelchel look like a Pagan. Tom will do all he can to recruit everyone to Scientology and Kirk has a website telling you you're going to hell and God hates you if you've sinned and aren't as perfect as he is.

Would this not be a pay-per-view deathmatch you'd love to see? they're both so annoying and judgmental and maybe they'd both kick each others butt so hard that there'd be nothing left for either to kick, lol.

lol...I'd pay to see that. Celebrity Deathmatch...only not clay.

[Dean Winchester]

I heard that's why he no longer wanted to be on Growing Pains - he felt the character of Mike was too much of a "sinner" and didn't want to portray that to youth that he might be influencing. :rolleyes: puke:

imagine if Kirk was cast on Seinfeld and "found Christ" then, LOL. I don't see how Mike Seaver was a sinner or anything, he was just a typical teenage boy.

[Dean Winchester]

lol...I'd pay to see that. Celebrity Deathmatch...only not clay.

yea, I could see the two of them have at each other like Jimmy and Timmy on South Park, lol

[dawsongirl]

Still, he's nowhere in Tom Cruise's league in my opinion. Tom's insane. Kirk just appears to be an intensely devout Christian.

Yeah...at least Kirk believes in an actual religion, not something some egomaniacal scifi writer thought up.

[dawsongirl]

well, Nicole has always come off as a strong-willed female. Katie wants to be all things to all people, Kidman on the other hand, has always come off like she has a stronger sense of self. I think she probably had a heart to heart with Tom about "it's great that you're a Scientologist, but don't push it on me, I'm not interested" and he backed down. Katie seems like the type who will try any drug handed to her because of peer pressure.

If Tom told her that jumping off a cliff would make her more famous, she'd do it.

[dawsongirl]

Actually I'm sure he has a show on some Christian channel currently running. I'll look out for what channel it is (in the 260s somewhere on my Dishnet). I know the show is called "Kirk Cameron". I've never tuned in myself.

I did one night. For like 5 minutes. I had no idea what they were talking about.

[*Pleasant Tomorrow*]

yea, I could see the two of them have at each other like Jimmy and Timmy on South Park, lol
CRIPPLE FIGHT!!! :rofl:

[dawsongirl]

I heard that's why he no longer wanted to be on Growing Pains - he felt the character of Mike was too much of a "sinner" and didn't want to portray that to youth that he might be influencing. :rolleyes: puke:

o_O

That's annoying. It's just acting. And it's not like Mike was badass.

[Stuck In The '70's]

If Tom told her that jumping off a cliff would make her more famous, she'd do it.


Katie does act like she's brainwashed.

[EmoJoe]

Probably Tom Cruise

[Pus$y Galore]

And there isn't even a St. Olaf in MN. :lol:

Aw come on Allison - we know that's where your goat farm is!! ;) :p

[Pus$y Galore]

imagine if Kirk was cast on Seinfeld and "found Christ" then, LOL. I don't see how Mike Seaver was a sinner or anything, he was just a typical teenage boy.


Exactly!!! A NORMAL kid - nothing weird or extreme either way. That's why even the castmates got sick of him after a while. I admire people who LIVE their faith rather than try to cram it down anyone's throats. I'll be WAY more willing to listen what they have to say when I see them just be a good person and DO good things - put your actions where your mouth is! (sorry for the horrid grammar on that line)! :lol:

[EmoJoe]

Some people I know are just as bad, they think Earth Day is "the devil's day" and think rock music is "the devil's music" o_O. The only music that isn't evil is gospel and religious music, according to them.

[Pus$y Galore]

Some people I know are just as bad, they think Earth Day is "the devil's day" and think rock music is "the devil's music" o_O. The only music that isn't evil is gospel and religious music, according to them.


EARTH Day is the devil's day.....WHAAAAT? Why would THAT be?! :eek2:

[PZelda]

Aw come on Allison - we know that's where your goat farm is!! ;) :p
:rofl:

[Dean Winchester]

I wonder if Kirk and Tracey Gold had it out because it's well-known that Tracey is Jewish and Kirk is intolerant of any religion besides his own

[Hollow]

I heard that's why he no longer wanted to be on Growing Pains - he felt the character of Mike was too much of a "sinner" and didn't want to portray that to youth that he might be influencing. :rolleyes: puke:
writing the answers to a history test on the bottom of his shoe and cheating. damn, he must have really screwed up some young viewers portraying such a brutally morbid character.

[dawsongirl]

EARTH Day is the devil's day.....WHAAAAT? Why would THAT be?! :eek2:

That's what I was gonna ask.

[ABlairican Pie]

EARTH Day is the devil's day.....WHAAAAT? Why would THAT be?! :eek2:It's because it's not heaven.

[Brad Russ]

Kirk has a website telling you you're going to hell and God hates you if you've sinned and aren't as perfect as he is.

That's not true. What Kirk does is he shares the 10 Commandments with people, as a way of showing that we have all sinned, and that we all need God, and that through Jesus Christ, all can be saved. I have seen his, and Ray Comfort's show, "Way Of The Master" many times, and that is the point of the show. Jesus says: I am the way, the truth, and the light, and no one comes to the Father but through me. This is what Kirk teaches on the show, that we all need to first admit that we are sinners, stop sinning, (just as Jesus said to the woman caught in the act of adultery), and accept Christ into our lives. I have never seen anything on his website, nor seen anything on his show, that was contrary to Scripture. I'm not saying their isn't anything on their that's not contrary, just that I haven't noticed anything. I would strongly advise anyone who thinks that Kirk's way of preaching is anti-Christian, to read the letters of Paul, which makes up most of the New Testament. I think many will be surprised at what the Bible actually says.Some of his letters makes Kirk's preaching seem tame.

[Dean Winchester]

yea, but in Kirks point of view, merely looking at someone and finding them attractive is a sin, which makes him a big old hypocrite considering how many teen magazines he graced the covers of in the 1980's. Do you think people buy teen magazines with pinups because "I am really impressed with the lighting and photography", no, it's because "damn Chad Michael Murray looks hot in this pic" and the same applied back when Kirk was in his Like Father Like Son/Growing Pains days when he was the "it" heartthrob too.

[Brad Russ]

That was before he was a Christian though. He would be a hypocrit if he was preaching to people, and still living that sort of lifestyle, but he's not anymore. If he's a hypocrit because he was once in teen magazines where young girls lusted after him, that would also make everyone in the Bible (aside from Jesus), a hypocrit, since they all sinned at one point.

[Pus$y Galore]

It's because it's not heaven.


It could almost be if we took care of it well enough which is the whole point of Earth Day!

Man, I'll NEVER understand THAT warped thinking!! :eek3:

[Pus$y Galore]

writing the answers to a history test on the bottom of his shoe and cheating. damn, he must have really screwed up some young viewers portraying such a brutally morbid character.


O_O -plus I guess just having a best friend named, Boner is enough in his eyes! :rolleyes:

I'm starting to see why my parents got soured on certain "degrees" of Christianity and didn't force us into the Church.
I know I dated a guy who's mother had first converted to Catholic (to marry his father) and then converted to Mormon after that. He was living with his brother in their own apt.. Dave was 23 and his brother 26. His mom shows up at his door one Sunday morning (unexpectedly), walks into their apt. and immediately sees a couple of Playboys on their coffee table. She freaks, grabs them and threw them in the trash! Its none of her business what her GROWN children in their OWN apt. do! She tried to force her beliefs down everyone's throat. Its why I ended up breaking up with him. I knew if I had married him, I'd be marrying HER at the same time!! Forget it!

I figure I live my life VERY well! I "sin", but I think the good in me heavily outweighs any bad and if there's not a place for me in "heaven" when the time comes then their can't be justice in life anyway! Same with animals - if they're not allowed in heaven, then I don't want to go anyway. Besides, it would be FULL of Kirk Camerons and what fun would that be? ;)

[barwars]

If God is truly like the god that Kirk Cameron believes in.... then he's a total ass.

[Janice]

I looked at Kirk's website, and he doesn't come off as a kook to me. Just a very devout Christian. He's translating the bible, not making up crap like Scientology. It's his own business. He's not even in your face about it, like Cruise is these days. You have to seek Kirk out and go to his website or go to see him.

Personally, I'm not wild about it when people are extremely religious and preach to me. I've been in that situation before with a former co-worker and a family member. I ended up telling them that I respect their right to their beliefs but to please respect my right to not be preached to. If I want a sermon, I'll seek one out.

I do believe that anyone has the right to be as religious as they want. Some people are deeply religious. I respect that.

[Pus$y Galore]

I do too - without a doubt, but as you say, I don't like it when I feel I'm being preached to. I don't think anyone does.

What's the address for his site? www.kirkcameron.com?

[Janice]

I do too - without a doubt, but as you say, I don't like it when I feel I'm being preached to. I don't think anyone does.

What's the address for his site? www.kirkcameron.com? (http://www.kirkcameron.com?)
No, it's this one. http://www.wayofthemaster.com/

[Pus$y Galore]

No, it's this one. http://www.wayofthemaster.com/


K - thx - I'll give it a boo.

[Brad Russ]

Thanks for posting that link Janice. It really is a good site, with a ton of useful information. I think alot of people will get some use out of it.

[ABlairican Pie]

The problem sometimes with his approach on this website is that he seems to be appealing to people's fear of hell rather than a desire to have peace with God. "If you break even one commandment, you're going to hell!!!" It's also strange when he says that if you believe that God is a God of love, mercy, and compassion, then "you have made a false idol!!!" because you don't believe that God can and will send you to hell. In other words, if you believe that God is too kind and loving to send anyone to hell, than you're going to hell because you don't believe that God can will send anyone there. HUH??? :confused:

Here's a quote from George Carlin, I don't agree with it necessarily, but it sheds light on the whole issue:

"Religion has actually convinced people that there's an invisible man--living in the sky--who watches everything you do, every minute of the day. And this invisible man has a special list of ten things he does not want you to do. And if you do any of these ten things, he has a special place, full of fire and smoke and burning and torture and anguish, where he will send you to live and suffer and burn and choke and scream and cry forever and ever, 'til the end of time! But He loves you."

[Dean Winchester]

If God is truly like the god that Kirk Cameron believes in.... then he's a total ass.

exactly. "Your God is loving and forgiving? then you don't believe in THE REAL GOD". Who needs Mike Seaver telling them they are right or wrong? who the hell is he? Especially considering Lisa Whelchel is a hardcore Christian too but the God she worships is that of a loving and patient God.

At least Tom Cruise is actually a decent actor and has an impressive film resume behind him, Kirk was nothing more than at best an average teen actor and as soon as he became too old for Tiger Beat, nobody besides Christian fundies still cared.

[ABlairican Pie]

exactly. "Your God is loving and forgiving? then you don't believe in THE REAL GOD". Who needs Mike Seaver telling them they are right or wrong? who the hell is he? Especially considering Lisa Whelchel is a hardcore Christian too but the God she worships is that of a loving and patient God.

At least Tom Cruise is actually a decent actor and has an impressive film resume behind him, Kirk was nothing more than at best an average teen actor and as soon as he became too old for Tiger Beat, nobody besides Christian fundies still cared.At least Lisa is honest in her faults and failings, she puts a human stamp on what she says on her site. She doesn't come across all preachy and hellfire.

Wow, Lisa "hardcore"--kinda like moshpit punk!!! :rock: :lol:

[Dean Winchester]

At least Lisa is honest in her faults and failings, she puts a human stamp on what she says on her site. She doesn't come across all preachy and hellfire.

Wow, Lisa "hardcore"--kinda like moshpit punk!!! :rock: :lol:

exactly, Lisa's attitude is "I feel like my devotion to God has made me a better person and I hope He can help others the way He's helped me", but at the same time she seems like she can be open to other beliefs as well. She believes that God saves, and her message is that finding God will help you, as opposed to "you're nothing but a sinner". I've lost whatever urge I ever felt to watching Golden Pains reruns over Kirk's cocky arrogant attitude.

[Brad Russ]

Have any of you guys actually seen his show for more than five minutes?? If so, I guess you're watching a completely different show than I am. When I watch his show, I see a man with such a deep love for people, that he is willing to preach to them despite being spit on, and mocked, and ridiculed beyond belief. And you know what he'll do in response to those disgusting actions?? Absolutely nothing, just like Jesus did when the same thing happened to him. These are the exact types of things that happened to Jesus for speaking the truth, and I admire Kirk for taking on Christ's example. There's too much sugarcoating of the Gospels going on nowadays, and we need more people like Kirk to take people out of their comfort zones, just as Jesus, Paul, and all of Christs other Disciples did. I think Kirk is obviously a great man who actually has the guts to do what most Christians would never have the guts to do, and I greatly respect that!!

[Dean Winchester]

just because you're a Christian doesn't mean you have to admire the guy, Capt. and Tripper are both Christians and are sick to their stomachs over Kirk's holier-thou-art attitude.

I haven't seen the show but I've heard all about his Candid Camera-ish stunts about walking up to people and saying to teenage guys "have you ever fantasized about a woman?" "yes" "you're going to hell!!!" and crap like that.

Anyways Kirk, "adultery" means you're married or in a relationship and/or having affairs with somebody who is one. There'd be no point in getting married or whatever if you're not even allowed to be attracted to somebody, or do you believe in arranged marriages and maybe down the road the spouses might find attraction to each other? He has twisted words around to make it sensational.

Have any of you guys actually seen his show for more than five minutes?? If so, I guess you're watching a completely different show than I am. When I watch his show, I see a man with such a deep love for people, that he is willing to preach to them despite being spit on, and mocked, and ridiculed beyond belief. And you know what he'll do in response to those disgusting actions?? Absolutely nothing, just like Jesus did when the same thing happened to him. These are the exact types of things that happened to Jesus for speaking the truth, and I admire Kirk for taking on Christ's example. There's too much sugarcoating of the Gospels going on nowadays, and we need more people like Kirk to take people out of their comfort zones, just as Jesus, Paul, and all of Christs other Disciples did. I think Kirk is obviously a great man who actually has the guts to do what most Christians would never have the guts to do, and I greatly respect that!!

[Dean Winchester]

oh yea, don't forget that Kirk also attacked Mel Gibson for not even considering him for the role of Jesus in "The Passion". Granted, Mel's also a passionate religious man, but Mel is also a businessman, he knows nobody would wanna see Mike Seaver as Christ.

[Brad Russ]

If God is truly like the god that Kirk Cameron believes in.... then he's a total ass.

How can you say that?? He put his Son up as a ransom for you and me, and everyone else. Can you imagine how hard it must have been for Him as a Father, having to let his Son go through that?? And he did it for you, and you call him an ass?? I just don't get it. I'm in absolute shock right now.

[Pus$y Galore]

oh yea, don't forget that Kirk also attacked Mel Gibson for not even considering him for the role of Jesus in "The Passion". Granted, Mel's also a passionate religious man, but Mel is also a businessman, he knows nobody would wanna see Mike Seaver as Christ.


You're kidding! I had never heard that - he thought he could play Christ in a movie like that? For starters, he's got too much of a baby face to play Christ and secondly, as you say, he just played light roles - what would convince Mel that he could handle that kind of a role?? Sure, he's devout, but so was the actor who played him - as a matter of fact, he even had an audience with the Pope. I'll bet Kirk never had - its another branch of Christianity. My mother-in-law is a very devout Catholic and knows I'm not, but she feels I'll be going to heaven - I don't have to be "saved" by Christ in order to do that. That's MY kind of Christianity - not extreme and there's a place for everyone who lives their life basically good. I'm not being conceited, but if I'M going to hell, then so is 90% of the earth's population so I guess I won't be alone.

And btw, the movie DID affect me like I've never had any other movie affect me - I was crying and had to actually go throw up just before they break his legs on the Cross. I'm not a cold hearted person at all.

[Dean Winchester]

How can you say that?? He put his Son up as a ransom for you and me, and everyone else. Can you imagine how hard it must have been for Him as a Father, having to let his Son go through that?? And he did it for you, and you call him an ass?? I just don't get it. I'm in absolute shock right now.

the God Kirk worships is a different God than every other Christian I know worships.

Kirk seems masochistic and has a fantasy Christ that is hurtful, angry and likes to inflict pain on others. Most Christians worship a God that is loving, patient, forgiving and believes everyone is redeemable. I don't think what Tim said was wrong, I agree with him, Kirk wants God to be evil, He's not.

[Brad Russ]

That is not the kind of God Kirk is talking about. He's talking about a God who is willing to sacrifice his Son, so that all of us sinners can have a chance of being saved. Iv'e been watching his show for two years, so I know what I'm talking about. Once again, nobody has brought up anything that Kirk has said, that has been Biblically innaccurate.

[ABlairican Pie]

just because you're a Christian doesn't mean you have to admire the guy, Capt. and Tripper are both Christians and are sick to their stomachs over Kirk's holier-thou-art attitude.

I haven't seen the show but I've heard all about his Candid Camera-ish stunts about walking up to people and saying to teenage guys "have you ever fantasized about a woman?" "yes" "you're going to hell!!!" and crap like that.

Anyways Kirk, "adultery" means you're married or in a relationship and/or having affairs with somebody who is one. There'd be no point in getting married or whatever if you're not even allowed to be attracted to somebody, or do you believe in arranged marriages and maybe down the road the spouses might find attraction to each other? He has twisted words around to make it sensational.One thing I'd like to tell Mr. Cameron (boy, I'm still tempted to call him Hammett! :lol: ) is that his interpretation of the Ten Commandments isn't necessarily what Bible scholars would endorse: the commandment not to take the Lord's name in vain is not "Don't say cuss-words", but, Do not make a vow or oath unto God which you have no intention of keeping, such, "I swear, so help me God, that..." Jesus said in the Sermon on the Mount that no one should make vows at all while using God's name. Of course saying God's name in an irreverent way isn't the best way to use His name at all.

And I haven't got to the point in the video presentation where he talks about
Thou Shalt Not Commit Adultery, but I have read from reputable Bible scholars that the intent of that commandment is to warn people not to have sex with a girl who is intended to be another man's wife, because she would be considered "damaged goods" physically. It was more of a "respect for other people's property" issue, back when women were still considered chattel in ancient Biblical times.

Going to hell for fantasizing over a woman?? :eek: Like that's gonna stop us!! :lol: So how many times back about 15 or so years ago, did Kirk lie awake at night, thinking over and over......Julie...Julie McCullough........ :drool:

[Pus$y Galore]

That is not the kind of God Kirk is talking about. He's talking about a God who is willing to sacrifice his Son, so that all of us sinners can have a chance of being saved. Iv'e been watching his show for two years, so I know what I'm talking about. Once again, nobody has brought up anything that Kirk has said, that has been Biblically innaccurate.


Actually I worked with a woman who converted to some kind of Evanglical thing and was like that. She ate lunch with us all the time and was fine. Once she got involved in this cathedral, she would go on fasts for days (yet smoke her brains out while "fasting"). If someone at the lunch table even said "damn", she'd haul out a tape recorder with bible passages on it and would know right where to go and play it and call us all sinners and go on and on about how we were all going to hell for our sins. She eventually ended up quitting her job (a good one at that) with the company because she "could no longer be amongst us sinners." Now maybe she was just nuts, but she wasn't the only one who acted like that, that worshipped at this cathedral (it was a couple of buildings down the street from my old company).
Meanwhile, it turned out that the pastor of the place was arrested on child molestation charges and defrocked. He's now a real estate agent! :rolleyes:
It just makes you wonder when you witness things like that. It can actually turn people off religion when they see extremes in any faith.

[dawsongirl]

Actually I worked with a woman who converted to some kind of Evanglical thing and was like that. She ate lunch with us all the time and was fine. Once she got involved in this cathedral, she would go on fasts for days (yet smoke her brains out while "fasting"). If someone at the lunch table even said "damn", she'd haul out a tape recorder with bible passages on it and would know right where to go and play it and call us all sinners and go on and on about how we were all going to hell for our sins. She eventually ended up quitting her job (a good one at that) with the company because she "could no longer be amongst us sinners." Now maybe she was just nuts, but she wasn't the only one who acted like that, that worshipped at this cathedral (it was a couple of buildings down the street from my old company).
Meanwhile, it turned out that the pastor of the place was arrested on child molestation charges and defrocked. He's now a real estate agent! :rolleyes:
It just makes you wonder when you witness things like that. It can actually turn people off religion when they see extremes in any faith.

OMG! How annoying.

And yeah...it seems that a lot of the exteremists are the biggest sinners.

[ABlairican Pie]

Actually I worked with a woman who converted to some kind of Evanglical thing and was like that. She ate lunch with us all the time and was fine. Once she got involved in this cathedral, she would go on fasts for days (yet smoke her brains out while "fasting"). If someone at the lunch table even said "damn", she'd haul out a tape recorder with bible passages on it and would know right where to go and play it and call us all sinners and go on and on about how we were all going to hell for our sins. She eventually ended up quitting her job (a good one at that) with the company because she "could no longer be amongst us sinners." Now maybe she was just nuts, but she wasn't the only one who acted like that, that worshipped at this cathedral (it was a couple of buildings down the street from my old company).
Meanwhile, it turned out that the pastor of the place was arrested on child molestation charges and defrocked. He's now a real estate agent! :rolleyes:
It just makes you wonder when you witness things like that. It can actually turn people off religion when they see extremes in any faith.

Ugh, I've read that smoking is one of the WORST things you can do to yourself while fasting. :eek:

It seems strange how fundamentalism can attract so many imbalanced people.

[Pus$y Galore]

Ugh, I've read that smoking is one of the WORST things you can do to yourself while fasting. :eek:

It seems strange how fundamentalism can attract so many imbalanced people.


That was the really crazy part about it! I'm a smoker (I know! :rolleyes: ) but even I couldn't smoke while fasting - its a rotten feeling in the pit of your stomach.

Meanwhile, she was so much fun before she got involved in it - had a great sense of humour that she totally lost when she found religion. It was sad to see really.

[Fleet]

Going to hell for fantasizing over a woman?? :eek: Like that's gonna stop us!! :lol: So how many times back about 15 or so years ago, did Kirk lie awake at night, thinking over and over......Julie...Julie McCullough........ :drool:
In the Bible, and according to those who have been clinically "dead" for a short amount of time and entered the "other side," only the most evil people end up in a place like "hell."
You don't end up there for thinking about women, not returning a neighbor's lawn mower or finding .50 cents in a phone booth and not returning it.
And something which may surprise many people, it is you who judge yourself most harshly when on the other side- not God or Jesus.
Here is a portion of Betty J. Eadie's book which explains it...
(While on the "other side") "... Then I saw the disappointment I had caused others, and I cringed as their feelings of disappointment filled me, compounded by my own guilt. I saw how much grief my bad temper had caused, and I suffered this grief.
Everything about me had been taken into consideration, how I was raised, the things I had been taught, the pain given to me by others. And I realized that the council was not judging me; I was judging myself. Their love and mercy were absolute. Their respect for me could never be lessened.

I had offended far more people than I knew and my pain multiplied and became unbearable. The Savior stepped toward me, full of concern and love. His spirit gave me strength and he said that I was judging myself too critically. 'You're being too harsh on yourself,' he said. Then he showed me the acts of kindness I performed..."

[Dean Winchester]

very true, I don't believe we're all condemned to hell and only a select few of us can redeem ourselves to Heaven, like Kirk thinks. I think that Heaven is open to all, it's just that a select small amount of people, such as murderers, rapists, pedophiles, terrorists and the sort (and even then, I've been taught that even someone like Osama or Hitler isn't beyond redemption) are the ones who won't see it. I don't think God would condemn any "good" person to Hell because of a few sins, I think you'd really have to be a bad person

In the Bible, and according to those who have been clinically "dead" for a short amount of time and entered the "other side," only the most evil people end up in a place like "hell."
You don't end up there for thinking about women, not returning a neighbor's lawn mower or finding .50 cents in a phone booth and not returning it.
And something which may surprise many people, it is you who judge yourself most harshly when on the other side- not God or Jesus.
Here is a portion of Betty J. Eadie's book which explains it...
(While on the "other side") "... Then I saw the disappointment I had caused others, and I cringed as their feelings of disappointment filled me, compounded by my own guilt. I saw how much grief my bad temper had caused, and I suffered this grief.
Everything about me had been taken into consideration, how I was raised, the things I had been taught, the pain given to me by others. And I realized that the council was not judging me; I was judging myself. Their love and mercy were absolute. Their respect for me could never be lessened.

I had offended far more people than I knew and my pain multiplied and became unbearable. The Savior stepped toward me, full of concern and love. His spirit gave me strength and he said that I was judging myself too critically. 'You're being too harsh on yourself,' he said. Then he showed me the acts of kindness I performed..."

[Pus$y Galore]

You're dead on right there Fleet! That's how I believe it to be.

And I'm sure it was God who has already come to me and said I was judging myself too harshly - eating disorders, depression and suicidal thoughts in my past - all from thinking I wasn't worthy. It wasn't until I was taught that I AM worth - a LOT that I came to have peace in my life - even when things aren't going perfectly. (And it wasn't directly religion, or the word of God who taught me that, but he may have provided the pieces that did).

And I'm sure that when I get on the other side, there is a nice, soft place for me to land, directly in the hands of God.

[ABlairican Pie]

It could almost be if we took care of it well enough which is the whole point of Earth Day!

Man, I'll NEVER understand THAT warped thinking!! :eek3:Of course, I'm kidding when I say we shouldn't pay attention to Earth Day and caring for the planet. There are too many people in churches who act like they're so hellbent for heaven that they ignore we have environmental problems here, oh well, we're getting raptured anyway. And carcinogens and toxic stuff? You're paying a little too much to mortal flesh. God wants us in angelic bodies!

ohno:

[TheHappyBurgerMeister]

I actually just recently checked out Kirk's "Way of the Master" site. I'm a Christian too and was just curious to see what he had. Well, I was looking at the part where he says to get to Heaven, you have to follow all the 10 commandments. That is SOOOO not true! The only way to get to Heaven is to believe in Jesus as the Son of God, so the only commandment you really need to follow to get to heaven is the first one. God will forgive our sins if we break the other ones.

Yeah, so his site is kind of weird and not exactly what I was taught.

[Pus$y Galore]

Of course, I'm kidding when I say we shouldn't pay attention to Earth Day and caring for the planet. There are too many people in churches who act like they're so hellbent for heaven that they ignore we have environmental problems here, oh well, we're getting raptured anyway. And carcinogens and toxic stuff? You're paying a little too much to mortal flesh. God wants us in angelic bodies!

ohno:


Oh o.k. - I see whatchya mean. Yah - for sure. I thought you meant there was actually something in the Bible about it - Whew! That would have REALLY done it for me! :lol:

[ABlairican Pie]

Oh o.k. - I see whatchya mean. Yah - for sure. I thought you meant there was actually something in the Bible about it - Whew! That would have REALLY done it for me! :lol:Yea, and the LORD their God hath commanded the tribes to partake of the vessels of toxic waste, to drinketh of the overflowing cup and to be exceedingly glad...Rejoice, ye, for the Lord spaketh it to be good!

:lol:

[Pus$y Galore]

Yea, and the LORD their God hath commanded the tribes to partake of the vessels of toxic waste, to drinketh of the overflowing cup and to be exceedingly glad...Rejoice, ye, for the Lord spaketh it to be good!

:lol:


BEAUTIFUL!! :lol:

[ABlairican Pie]

BEAUTIFUL!! :lol: :cheers: :liplick: :drink:

[TJL]

www.tomcruiseisnuts.com

Too funny.

;)

[Janice]

www.tomcruiseisnuts.com (http://www.tomcruiseisnuts.com/)

Too funny.

;)
I love it! :brent

[EmoJoe]

EARTH Day is the devil's day.....WHAAAAT? Why would THAT be?! :eek2:
Dont ask me :lol:

[barwars]

The only way to get to Heaven is to believe in Jesus as the Son of God, so the only commandment you really need to follow to get to heaven is the first one.

I don't even think that has to be done to enter Heaven. I think if you live your live as good as possible, whether you're Christian, Jewish, Muslim, or whatever you choose, even Atheist, that you'll be accepted into heaven.

[*Pleasant Tomorrow*]

www.tomcruiseisnuts.com

Too funny.

;)

It says: Kieran Mulvaney, Co-creator of TomCruiseIsNuts.com will be on MSNBC tomorrow (Weds 6 July) at 4:50 eastern time - tune in!

I'm totally watching

[Czas na Zywiec]

I don't even think that has to be done to enter Heaven. I think if you live your live as good as possible, whether you're Christian, Jewish, Muslim, or whatever you choose, even Atheist, that you'll be accepted into heaven.

I totally agree. I don't think that God put Muslims, Buddhists, and Hindus on this earth just to have them burn in hell for eternity. People believe in what they feel is right. If you have an honest and good, hardworking Muslim man and an honest and good, hardworking Christian man, I believe they're both going to go into heaven. And not just the Christian man because Islam is "evil."

[Pus$y Galore]

I totally agree. I don't think that God put Muslims, Buddhists, and Hindus on this earth just to have them burn in hell for eternity. People believe in what they feel is right. If you have an honest and good, hardworking Muslim man and an honest and good, hardworking Christian man, I believe they're both going to go into heaven. And not just the Christian man because Islam is "evil."

As will Jews. We all believe in different things. That's why I can't buy Kirk's more "by-the-book-read-between-the-lines" devoutness. Even if it meant that I DID end up burning in hell, I couldn't believe that in my lifetime because it would separate us all even more - who needs that? The world's buggered up enough as it is!

[Hollow]

Kirk has a website telling you you're going to hell and God hates you if you've sinned and aren't as perfect as he is.
well it's his belief, he just follows what the bible says.

[TheHappyBurgerMeister]

I don't even think that has to be done to enter Heaven. I think if you live your live as good as possible, whether you're Christian, Jewish, Muslim, or whatever you choose, even Atheist, that you'll be accepted into heaven.

well, OK, if that's what you think. But I was taught that as long as you believe in Jesus and God (even if you have committed MURDER or have done the worst sins) you can still get to Heaven. I guess Jews or Muslims (or whatever religion you are) could go to Heaven, too.

I mean SOMEONE has to go to Hell, or else why would it exist?

[rusyd]

I saw the website and it's a little too radical for me. If you sin and ask for forgivness and are truly sorry you will be forgiven, but that is not what Kirk's message seems to be saying.

[barwars]

I guess Jews or Muslims (or whatever religion you are) could go to Heaven, too.

Why should they be penalized for believing the wrong thing? I remember after Columbine, people looked up to and admired the girl who died for saying she believe in God. I'd hate to think people wouldn't react the same if she were to have died for saying she believed in Allah or Buddha, but sadly, they would.

The thing is, nobody knows for 100% certain which religion is the "truth". I believe if you live your life as good as your religion teaches, that the "true" God will accept you. I believe what I believe, but I leave others to decide for themselves. I would hate to think that I would stray someone away from a religion, and in the end discover that I was the one that was taught the wrong thing. People should stand up for what they believe in, but shut up when it comes to what others should believe.

[Pus$y Galore]

Why should they be penalized for believing the wrong thing? I remember after Columbine, people looked up to and admired the girl who died for saying she believe in God. I'd hate to think people wouldn't react the same if she were to have died for saying she believed in Allah or Buddha, but sadly, they would.

The thing is, nobody knows for 100% certain which religion is the "truth". I believe if you live your life as good as your religion teaches, that the "true" God will accept you. I believe what I believe, but I leave others to decide for themselves. I would hate to think that I would stray someone away from a religion, and in the end discover that I was the one that was taught the wrong thing. People should stand up for what they believe in, but shut up when it comes to what others should believe.

Yes - that's my point exactly. I wondered where you were headed with that first sentence!!! :eek: :lol:

I want to believe in and allow others to believe in whatever gives them comfort, makes them truly happy and as long as they live their lives as best they can and as honestly as you can. What more could anyone, including a God who knows we're only mortal to believe in.

[TheHappyBurgerMeister]

Why should they be penalized for believing the wrong thing? I remember after Columbine, people looked up to and admired the girl who died for saying she believe in God. I'd hate to think people wouldn't react the same if she were to have died for saying she believed in Allah or Buddha, but sadly, they would.

The thing is, nobody knows for 100% certain which religion is the "truth". I believe if you live your life as good as your religion teaches, that the "true" God will accept you. I believe what I believe, but I leave others to decide for themselves. I would hate to think that I would stray someone away from a religion, and in the end discover that I was the one that was taught the wrong thing. People should stand up for what they believe in, but shut up when it comes to what others should believe.

By "someone" I just meant some people in general, not jews or muslims or athiest. But I do agree with you that we don't know which religion is really the "truth". I'm a Christian and I don't go around saying my religion is the best and it's the "right" religion (although some unfortunately do in this religion or any other). I believe that Hell does exist so I know some human beings in the past and will in the future will go there. How and why- I'm not really 100% sure. No one really knows what will happen to you when you die because obviously after you die you can't go back and tell people "I went to (insert place of eternity here)!"

[dawsongirl]

well, OK, if that's what you think. But I was taught that as long as you believe in Jesus and God (even if you have committed MURDER or have done the worst sins) you can still get to Heaven.

Not in my heaven they don't.

[Pus$y Galore]

By "someone" I just meant some people in general, not jews or muslims or athiest. But I do agree with you that we don't know which religion is really the "truth". I'm a Christian and I don't go around saying my religion is the best and it's the "right" religion (although some unfortunately do in this religion or any other). I believe that Hell does exist so I know some human beings in the past and will in the future will go there. How and why- I'm not really 100% sure. No one really knows what will happen to you when you die because obviously after you die you can't go back and tell people "I went to (insert place of eternity here)!"

I think anyone from any religion can go to hell if you screw up bad enough. Maybe certain murderers get in (like the wife who finally kills her abusive husband by accident in self defense or something), but for one's like Dahlmer - it's definitely hell for them.

"No one really knows what will happen to you when you die because obviously after you die you can't go back and tell people "I went to (insert place of eternity here - Buffalo, New York)!"

(j/k - anyone from Buffalo reading this! ;) )

[ABlairican Pie]

Not in my heaven they don't.I think he means that if you have asked Jesus to forgive you of what you've done. The general understanding in Christianity is that even if you've committed murder or some other crime, you can be forgiven by God (though not necessarily by the rest of society).

[Brad Russ]

St. Matthew 7:13-14: Enter ye in at the strait gate; for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: 14: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

St. Matthew: 7:21-23: Not everyone that sayeth unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22: Many will say unto me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? And in thy name have cast out devils? And in thy name done many wonderful works? 23: And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

These are Jesus' words, not mine. The point I'm trying to make is that from a Biblical standpoint, getting into Heaven isn't as easy as many people believe. I just think people need to know the truth. All you have to do is read what I just wrote which came straight from the Bible, and you'll clearly see that it's not only horrible rapists, and murderers who are sent to hell. If that were the case, why would Jesus say: Straight is the gate, and narrow is the way which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it? Jesus is not a liar people.

[MsOrange]

I like NIV better.

I understand what you are trying to say, LittleMel. Just because you are a good person doesn't mean you are going to get into heaven. You have to accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior. I think all anyone is really trying to say is that some people only want to focus on the fact that "God sends people to hell. So fear him and go to Heaven". When it's not like that. God doesn't send people to hell, people ask to be sent to hell by not accepting Christ to forgive their sins. My God is a loving God, I think he even has a good sense of humor (with some stuff that happens to me, He must have!!) But hey, that's my religion. Am I attempting to force it on any of you? No, because I do not think bombarding people on a message board is the right way to get the word out. So take this as you will.

And about the whole "murderers get into heaven as long as they believe in Jesus", when you HONESTLY accept Christ, not just babble a prayer and think you got some good "hell insurance", but when you honestly are broken and desperatley need God and accept Him, you are changed-- a true Christian will not go on a murder marathon the day after their saved. Yes, can some people be pushed to the limit--I go to Church with a guy who was. Yes, some people are hypocritical and make all us Christians look bad.

I have lived this, so I know it's real. I know accepting Jesus changes you, it changed me. Do I still mess up? EVERYDAY. But at least i'm trying...

[ABlairican Pie]

I understand where Kirk Cameron is coming from in the thing about the Ten Commandments thing, but he doesn't always make the clearest argument. He is basically saying what Christianity teaches, that "knowledge of the Law brings knowledge of sin", i.e., in our trying to follow the Law and the Ten Commandments, we basically find ourselves failing. When we tell ourselves that such and such things like adultery, murder, theft, etc., are wrong, 10 times out of 10 we'll do it, maybe not with actual act, but something along the lines of the motive. Jesus said in the Sermon on the Mount that not only was the act important but "minor" things which would lead to the worse act ("You have been told before, Do not murder, but I say to you, even he who calls his brother 'raca', or 'you stupid idiot!' is in danger of hellfire." The point New Testament authors were trying to make was that Jesus had come to bring a New Covenant where we did not live outwardly to the Law, but had His transforming power in our lives to live righteously.

The problem I also see is not only does Kirk Cameron make it a "do this or you'll go to hell" proposition, he seems to think every commandment is a "thou shalt not". Half the commandments are do's, or pro-active ones, the other half are don'ts, the thou-shalt nots. And that's not counting all the hundreds of other laws in the first five books of Moses (the Pentateuch).

I don't know how too many people became strong Christians because of their fear of hell. How would that really motivate us to live for God?

[barwars]

I don't believe that you have to believe that Jesus is the son of God to be accepted into heaven. That would mean there are billions upon billions of people on earth who will end up in hell.

If a Christian were to discover that Buddhism is the true religion, I wonder if they'd react the same as if the situation were a Buddhist discovering Christianity was the truth.

[Dean Winchester]

I like NIV better.

I understand what you are trying to say, LittleMel. Just because you are a good person doesn't mean you are going to get into heaven. You have to accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior. I think all anyone is really trying to say is that some people only want to focus on the fact that "God sends people to hell. So fear him and go to Heaven". When it's not like that. God doesn't send people to hell, people ask to be sent to hell by not accepting Christ to forgive their sins. My God is a loving God, I think he even has a good sense of humor (with some stuff that happens to me, He must have!!) But hey, that's my religion. Am I attempting to force it on any of you? No, because I do not think bombarding people on a message board is the right way to get the word out. So take this as you will.

And about the whole "murderers get into heaven as long as they believe in Jesus", when you HONESTLY accept Christ, not just babble a prayer and think you got some good "hell insurance", but when you honestly are broken and desperatley need God and accept Him, you are changed-- a true Christian will not go on a murder marathon the day after their saved. Yes, can some people be pushed to the limit--I go to Church with a guy who was. Yes, some people are hypocritical and make all us Christians look bad.

I have lived this, so I know it's real. I know accepting Jesus changes you, it changed me. Do I still mess up? EVERYDAY. But at least i'm trying...


why must it HAVE to be Jesus and ONLY Jesus? I mean, Christians get so pissed off when Muslims talk about how their faith is the ONLY way to go and the rest of us are infidels.... everytime a Christian such as Kirk acts like Christianity is the only path to Heaven, they're acting no better. Imagine how Jews feel when they hear this ****? They've been taught they're God's chosen people, and Buddhists feel the same way. Why did God create 1000 different religions if only one of them is going to send you to Heaven? so He has a death wish when the kids of the other 999 religions are born?

[*Pleasant Tomorrow*]

why must it HAVE to be Jesus and ONLY Jesus? I mean, Christians get so pissed off when Muslims talk about how their faith is the ONLY way to go and the rest of us are infidels.... everytime a Christian such as Kirk acts like Christianity is the only path to Heaven, they're acting no better. Imagine how Jews feel when they hear this ****? They've been taught they're God's chosen people, and Buddhists feel the same way. Why did God create 1000 different religions if only one of them is going to send you to Heaven? so He has a death wish when the kids of the other 999 religions are born?
:clap:

[Janice]

why must it HAVE to be Jesus and ONLY Jesus? I mean, Christians get so pissed off when Muslims talk about how their faith is the ONLY way to go and the rest of us are infidels.... everytime a Christian such as Kirk acts like Christianity is the only path to Heaven, they're acting no better. Imagine how Jews feel when they hear this ****? They've been taught they're God's chosen people, and Buddhists feel the same way. Why did God create 1000 different religions if only one of them is going to send you to Heaven? so He has a death wish when the kids of the other 999 religions are born?
Those who are Christians believe in their religion as do others who follow their own religions. I doubt Jews are bothered by what Christians believe or vice versa. Kirk Cameron, or others like him, are not the only people who believe that Christianity is the only path to Heaven. Many Christians believe that. It's in the bible.

I don't care what others believe. I honestly don't.

[Hollow]

Kirk Cameron, or others like him, are not the only people who believe that Christianity is the only path to Heaven. Many Christians believe that. It's in the bible.
exactly, and it's wrong to lose respect for him over it or single him out like he's responsible for it. as much as one may disagree, there isn't anything wrong with thinking that non-christians are going to hell. it doesn't mean they despise people of other religions. and if he wants to start a web site to spread the word of christianity, that's fine too. it doesn't mean he wishes death or anything on people who don't convert, geez.

[Janice]

exactly, and it's wrong to lose respect for him over it or single him out like he's responsible for it. as much as one may disagree, there isn't anything wrong with thinking that non-christians are going to hell. it doesn't mean they despise people of other religions. and if he wants to start a web site to spread the word of christianity, that's fine too. it doesn't mean he wishes death or anything on people who don't convert, geez.
Right, if someone disagrees with his firm beliefs, and I agree he's a strict Christian, that's one thing. But to rake the guy over the coals for being a strict Christian is tantamount to bashing Christians, or him anyway. Some are making the guy out to be a monster.

[Dean Winchester]

exactly, and it's wrong to lose respect for him over it or single him out like he's responsible for it. as much as one may disagree, there isn't anything wrong with thinking that non-christians are going to hell. it doesn't mean they despise people of other religions. and if he wants to start a web site to spread the word of christianity, that's fine too. it doesn't mean he wishes death or anything on people who don't convert, geez.

people have lost respect over Tom Cruise and Madonna over being hardcore into what they believe in too. If Tom is a "Scientologist nut" or Madonna is a "Kaballah nut", Kirk is a "Christian nut". The difference between Tom and Kirk is that Tom is actually a respected actor, he's been in a number of great movies, people generally liked him until he started talking about how his religion is better thna everyone elses, Kirk has been a washed-up actor who had a brief moment in the sun in the late 1980's because girls thought he was cute, even though his tv show was basically a third-rate Family Ties carbon copy (just look at Michael J. Fox's post-FT trajectories compared to Kirk's). People speak how much they want Tom to shut up about Scientology and Madonna to shut up about the Kaballah, I think the same should apply to Kirk.

[ABlairican Pie]

I don't think people like to be told they're going to hell, especially when it's by an actor who has it a little bit better than they've got it.

[Brad Russ]

why must it HAVE to be Jesus and ONLY Jesus? I mean, Christians get so pissed off when Muslims talk about how their faith is the ONLY way to go and the rest of us are infidels.... everytime a Christian such as Kirk acts like Christianity is the only path to Heaven, they're acting no better. Imagine how Jews feel when they hear this ****? They've been taught they're God's chosen people, and Buddhists feel the same way. Why did God create 1000 different religions if only one of them is going to send you to Heaven? so He has a death wish when the kids of the other 999 religions are born?

The reason it must be only Jesus from my standpoint, is because that's what the Bible says. What kind of Christian would I be if I didn't believe everything the Bible said?? Jesus was Jewish, and a Jew can accept Christ just like anyone else. Nobody is excluded from anything, because Jesus gives us all an option of coming to him. The first Christian's were even Jewish.

As far as the Tom Cruise thing goes, that's a totally different situation. Christianity has been around for close to 2000 years, and probably has more evidence to back it up, than any other source of history on this planet. Tom Cruise on the other hand, believes in a cult, that was made up by some Science Fiction writer, and is brainwashing people into believing something with very little, or no evidence whatsoever. To compare what Kirk is saying, to what Tom is saying, is absolutely obsurd for those reasons, and others.

As for kabbalah, yeah, people have given Madonna alot of crap for that. I don't agree with people doing that either. If she wants to believe in kabbalah, that's fine, that's her choice. It doesn't offend, or bother me one bit. Just like it doesn't bother me that Muslims think their way is the right way. As long as their way doesn't involve slaughtering innocent people who don't agree with them, I have no problem with them whatsoever.

Basically, Kirk Cameron is a guy who is sharing his historic beliefs, and I just can't understand people's animosity over him sharing those beliefs. I haven't seen or head anything from him that should warrant such an angry response from people. People always throw the "don't judge others" verse in a Christians face every chance they get. I think many of you need to take your own advice, as some of your Judgments on Kirk, have been mean spirited, and absolutely false.

[dawsongirl]

why must it HAVE to be Jesus and ONLY Jesus? I mean, Christians get so pissed off when Muslims talk about how their faith is the ONLY way to go and the rest of us are infidels.... everytime a Christian such as Kirk acts like Christianity is the only path to Heaven, they're acting no better. Imagine how Jews feel when they hear this ****? They've been taught they're God's chosen people, and Buddhists feel the same way. Why did God create 1000 different religions if only one of them is going to send you to Heaven? so He has a death wish when the kids of the other 999 religions are born?

Precisely why I have no religion. I can have my own perception of God without having someone tell me what to think.

I look at the bible as a work of fiction anyway.

[Pus$y Galore]

Precisely why I have no religion. I can have my own perception of God without having someone tell me what to think.

I look at the bible as a work of fiction anyway.


That's really what I think too, although I do respect people who have a religion as long as it comforts them and they don't try to push it on me, as I don't try to push my beliefs on anyone else.

I do think he's got a right (as do we all) to have a website. I had a look - its quite the jazzy site FX wise, but I'm not into it, so I just went back out and don't need to look again. Now if he came (or anyone) knocking on my door, bothering me during dinner time then it might be another matter. Even then, I'd just nicely tell them I'm not interested and that's that. They try burning a cross or hurting my family - THEN I've got a major problem and so do they. ;)

[TheGreatPretender]

o_O

That's annoying. It's just acting. And it's not like Mike was badass.

He missed curfew ...sure sign that he is going to hell. :rolleyes:

[Brian Damage]

I don't even think that has to be done to enter Heaven. I think if you live your live as good as possible, whether you're Christian, Jewish, Muslim, or whatever you choose, even Atheist, that you'll be accepted into heaven.

Not true

[Brian Damage]

You must accept Jesus Christ as your lord and saviour. God knows we will all sin and make mistakes. That is why he gave us free will. On the other hand, there must be a time when you repent those sins and accept God. There is only one God. There is only one Jesus Christ. Kirk may be radical in his thinking, but he is passionate. He has a strong relationship with God. People who do not know Christ feel threatened by that and mock him. Like little Mel said, it happened to Christ, it happened to his disciples and it happens to Christians with strong and passionate beliefs in God.

[barwars]

Not true

So Hitler could have repented his sins, and gotten into Heaven.... but the 6 million Jews he killed would have gone to hell?? Sounds reasonable to me.


Jerry Seinfeld, Larry David, Mel Brooks, Muhammed Ali, and Gandhi will all end up in hell, if they're not already there? Well, at least if I ever go for whatever reason, the company will be nice.

[barwars]

What kind of Christian would I be if I didn't believe everything the Bible said??

Whatever kind you want. You do not have to believe the Bible is the end-all-be-all to be a Christian.

[Hollow]

people have lost respect over Tom Cruise and Madonna over being hardcore into what they believe in too. If Tom is a "Scientologist nut" or Madonna is a "Kaballah nut", Kirk is a "Christian nut". The difference between Tom and Kirk is that Tom is actually a respected actor, he's been in a number of great movies, people generally liked him until he started talking about how his religion is better thna everyone elses, Kirk has been a washed-up actor who had a brief moment in the sun in the late 1980's because girls thought he was cute, even though his tv show was basically a third-rate Family Ties carbon copy (just look at Michael J. Fox's post-FT trajectories compared to Kirk's). People speak how much they want Tom to shut up about Scientology and Madonna to shut up about the Kaballah, I think the same should apply to Kirk.
it doesn't matter what the situation with other people are, he's not doing anything wrong. tom cruise and madonna are just as much entitled to share their religious beliefs.

it seems like everyone who has a web site, tv show or book spreading the word of christianity (or any religion, actually) is accused of being a bible thumper and hated for things they believe (ie thinking people of other religions are going to hell). they're always told to shut the **** up if they go further than saying "i believe in god." unless they threaten to kill people of other religions or something, they're not doing anything wrong.

if someone says they hate kirk cameron for believing in things like going to hell for not being good enough, then they would hate all christians because that's just part of the christian belief. they may not realize it, but it's nothing but prejudice.

[dawsongirl]

That's really what I think too, although I do respect people who have a religion as long as it comforts them and they don't try to push it on me, as I don't try to push my beliefs on anyone else.


Oh yeah. If someone wants to have pictures of Jesus and crosses all over their house and go to church 5 times a week, that's cool. Just please don't tell me I'm going to hell because I don't. Different strokes...

[ABlairican Pie]

What kind of Christian would I be if I didn't believe everything the Bible said?? Do you believe that eating pork and shellfish are wrong? That's what the Bible says.

[Pus$y Galore]

Do you believe that eating pork and shellfish are wrong? That's what the Bible says.

The same with sex - other than to reproduce only. My cat must be devout.

[ABlairican Pie]

The same with sex - other than to reproduce only. My cat must be devout. :lol: :kitties: :kitties: :kitties: :kitties: :kitties: :kitties: :kitties:

I think the problem with people saying that the Bible is true is that they focus on truth as being "factually correct and historically accurate". God "dictated" the book verbatim so therefore it could not be wrong. People don't see truth in the Bible as something deeper that has meaning for our lives and gives understanding, something that surpasses everything that we have thought before about things. We stick to the literalistic, legalistic approach to be "on the safe side".

[Brad Russ]

Do you believe that eating pork and shellfish are wrong? That's what the Bible says.

Here's what Jesus says about that.

St Matthew 15:11 Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man.

St. Matthew 15: 17-20 Do not ye yet understand, that whatsoever entereth in at the mouth goeth into the belly, and is cast out into the draught?

18: But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.

19: For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:

20: These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man.

[barwars]

Here's what Jesus says about that.

Well, those are things people said Jesus said. There are no direct quotes in the Bible. Nothing was first-hand.

[Pus$y Galore]

Well, those are things people said Jesus said. There are no direct quotes in the Bible. Nothing was first-hand.


I agree! Heresay doesn't stand up in court, but it does in a book that was written by MEN, not Jesus or God himself, and we all know what happens to fish stories being retold for a few years - let alone 2000!!

If people take the written word of the Bible literally, then that means that to them, evolution didn't take place and that females were created out of a rib? And if Adam and Eve had two sons, then somewhere along the line, Eve must have had an incestuous relationship with one or both of those boys in order to produce the next female. Doesn't sound very Christian-like to me! :eek:

[dawsongirl]

Here's what Jesus says about that.

St Matthew 15:11 Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man.

St. Matthew 15: 17-20 Do not ye yet understand, that whatsoever entereth in at the mouth goeth into the belly, and is cast out into the draught?

18: But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.

19: For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:

20: These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man.

Maybe I'm dumb...but what does any of that even mean?!

[dawsongirl]

And if Adam and Eve had two sons, then somewhere along the line, Eve must have had an incestuous relationship with one or both of those boys in order to produce the next female. Doesn't sound very Christian-like to me! :eek:

!! I've always wondered that myself.

[Brad Russ]

This is what Jesus' friends said that he said. They weren't just merely people to him, they were his friends. And I don't think his friends would lie about what he said.

I know many of you are probably getting tired of all this Scripture I'm quoting, but the way I look at it, why should I try to come up with my own answers, when God has already done the work for me through His Holy Word?

Here's a little bit more on the food issue.

1 Timothy 4:1-6 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

2: Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron:

Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.

4: For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving:

5: For it is sanctified by the Word of God and prayer.

6: If thou put the brethren in remembrance of these things, thou shalt be a good minister of Jesus Christ, nourished up in the words of faith and of good doctrine, whereunto thou hast attained.

[Pus$y Galore]

!! I've always wondered that myself.


I've posed that question to many different people with different Christian beliefs (Protestants, Catholics, Evangelicals) and not one can give me a proper answer. One even dreamt up that there were other kids born, but that the Bible doesn't mention that! :lol: Talk about laughable! And if there were other kids born, then there still had to be incest - you can't get around it.

[Pus$y Galore]

This is what Jesus' friends said that he said. They weren't just merely people to him, they were his friends. And I don't think his friends would lie about what he said.

I know many of you are probably getting tired of all this Scripture I'm quoting, but the way I look at it, why should I try to come up with my own answers, when God has already done the work for me through His Holy Word?

Here's a little bit more on the food issue.

1 Timothy 4:1-6 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

2: Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron:

Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.

4: For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving:

5: For it is sanctified by the Word of God and prayer.

6: If thou put the brethren in remembrance of these things, thou shalt be a good minister of Jesus Christ, nourished up in the words of faith and of good doctrine, whereunto thou hast attained.


I don't think we're saying they were liars, just that words and meanings do get interpreted differently by different people. Or even being friends, may have taken a bit more liberty on certain points they had strong beliefs in themselves.
As well, even within the same religion, many people interpret the word of God differently. Look at the recent ruckus caused with The Passion of the Christ and the DaVinci Code - where some Catholics believe Mary Magdoline as a whore who was saved by Christ and she followed him to his death because of it, and others who say that no, Mary Magdoline had been very ill with disease, Jesus cured her, they fell in love and even married.
Even Christians themselves interpret the different passages differently - its bound to happen.

[*Pleasant Tomorrow*]

Is Kirk's sister all hardcore Christian, too? DJ Tanner aka Candance Cameron? :grr:

[dawsongirl]

I've posed that question to many different people with different Christian beliefs (Protestants, Catholics, Evangelicals) and not one can give me a proper answer. One even dreamt up that there were other kids born, but that the Bible doesn't mention that! :lol: Talk about laughable! And if there were other kids born, then there still had to be incest - you can't get around it.

Yeah, didn't you know that Adam and Eve had three more kids? Yeah, there was Shannon, Marie, and Helen. But they were abducted by an asp and were raised by dinosaurs outside the garden of Eden. One day, Cain and Able wandered outside the garden and ran into these good-looking girls, and not knowing they were their sisters, decided to take them to a light show. And the rest is history. ;)

*no one flame me...I'm just joking*

[dawsongirl]

Is Kirk's sister all hardcore Christian, too? DJ Tanner aka Candance Cameron? :grr:

Hmm...I don't think so. :confused:

[Dean Winchester]

Is Kirk's sister all hardcore Christian, too? DJ Tanner aka Candance Cameron? :grr:

she's religious but she's married to a Jewish guy.

Can you picture Kirk married to a Jew? I sure can't, lol.

[dawsongirl]

she's religious but she's married to a Jewish guy.

Can you picture Kirk married to a Jew? I sure can't, lol.
He's Jewish?? I didn't know that.

[barwars]

Adam and Eve is at its core, a fairy tale. A tale told by the old Hebrews trying to explain to their children where the world came from. Just as with the Native American story of the world starting on the back of the shell of a turtle, its not to be taken literally. It's just there to tell you that we all come from the same place, and to some very wide extent, we are all family. I don't know anyone personally that believes Adam & Eve were actual people. And I know lots of Catholics (including priests & nuns), but I'm not quite sure what stance other Christian churches take, I've never really gotten into conversation about this other than with Catholics.

[Pus$y Galore]

Yeah, didn't you know that Adam and Eve had three more kids? Yeah, there was Shannon, Marie, and Helen. But they were abducted by an asp and were raised by dinosaurs outside the garden of Eden. One day, Cain and Able wandered outside the garden and ran into these good-looking girls, and not knowing they were their sisters, decided to take them to a light show. And the rest is history. ;)

*no one flame me...I'm just joking*

I heard their names were Ashley, Britney and Lokeisha (1980s names were big back then).
Sounds like a bad ep of Spriinger doesn't it? And now just to get the flames really stirred up, The Garden of Eden sounds a lot like parts of Arkansas and Alabama! ;) :lol:

[*Pleasant Tomorrow*]

I heard their names were Ashley, Britney and Lokeisha (1980s names were big back then).
Sounds like a bad ep of Spriinger doesn't it? And now just to get the flames really stirred up, The Garden of Eden sounds a lot like parts of Arkansas and Alabama! ;) :lol:
:lol:

[ABlairican Pie]

Maybe I'm dumb...but what does any of that even mean?!It means that Jesus was countering the long-held Jewish idea that eating "unclean" non-kosher food ideas would "corrupt" a person, it was more a matter of expressing vile thoughts and actions from the heart that corrupted a person.

[ABlairican Pie]

If people take the written word of the Bible literally, then that means that to them, evolution didn't take place and that females were created out of a rib? And if Adam and Eve had two sons, then somewhere along the line, Eve must have had an incestuous relationship with one or both of those boys in order to produce the next female. Doesn't sound very Christian-like to me! :eek:Not if they were in certain parts of Tennessee and Kentucky. ;)

[Pus$y Galore]

Adam and Eve is at its core, a fairy tale. A tale told by the old Hebrews trying to explain to their children where the world came from. Just as with the Native American story of the world starting on the back of the shell of a turtle, its not to be taken literally. It's just there to tell you that we all come from the same place, and to some very wide extent, we are all family. I don't know anyone personally that believes Adam & Eve were actual people. And I know lots of Catholics (including priests & nuns), but I'm not quite sure what stance other Christian churches take, I've never really gotten into conversation about this other than with Catholics.


Ahh - I'm glad you said that - that's what my old boyfriend said, but then I am left to wonder then if that (the very beginning of the Good Book) is a tale, then what else in there also is? See my point? Where are we supposed to know always when its telling a "tale" to make a point and when its the direct word to be taken literally? It's either fiction or non-fiction! You can't use the Dewy Decimal System on that one can ya? ;)

[Pus$y Galore]

It means that Jesus was countering the long-held Jewish idea that eating "unclean" non-kosher food ideas would "corrupt" a person, it was more a matter of expressing vile thoughts and actions from the heart that corrupted a person.


So what if you're just REALLY hungry and there's nothing around you but pigs?

I mean, I love my critters (as everybody by now knows), and I saw Babe, but hey - if I'm starving and its only me and Arnold - There's Gonna Be A Pig Roast People!!!

[barwars]

Ahh - I'm glad you said that - that's what my old boyfriend said, but then I am left to wonder then if that (the very beginning of the Good Book) is a tale, then what else in there also is? See my point? Where are we supposed to know always when its telling a "tale" to make a point and when its the direct word to be taken literally? It's either fiction or non-fiction! You can't use the Dewy Decimal System on that one can ya? ;)

Most of the New Testament is taken more literal.
As for things in the Old Testament such as Noah's Ark and Moses crossing the Red Sea, they are more or less exaggerations of true life events.

[barwars]

So what if you're just REALLY hungry and there's nothing around you but pigs?

I mean, I love my critters (as everybody by now knows), and I saw Babe, but hey - if I'm starving and its only me and Arnold - There's Gonna Be A Pig Roast People!!!

I think they whole "you can't eat pork products" comes from the fact that pork isn't easily digested in the first place, all religion aside. I respect Jewish people who don't eat pork, but wouldn't necessarily do that myself if I were Jewish.

[Pus$y Galore]

Not if they were in certain parts of Tennessee and Kentucky. ;)


Which really cracks me up cuz isn't that part of the Bible Belt? :crazy:

(no offense to anyone intended - just an observation)

[Pus$y Galore]

Most of the New Testament is taken more literal.
As for things in the Old Testament such as Noah's Ark and Moses crossing the Red Sea, they are more or less exaggerations of true life events.


But make for great special effects in the movies!! Every good story needs 'em! ;)

[Pus$y Galore]

I think they whole "you can't eat pork products" comes from the fact that pork isn't easily digested in the first place, all religion aside. I respect Jewish people who don't eat pork, but wouldn't necessarily do that myself if I were Jewish.


I know - I have Jewish and Muslim friends - some do, some don't - and some make exceptions :lol: They really do - I had an Orthodox Jewish doctor, but boy did he love it when we gave him a black forest ham for Hanukkah - he didn't let his wife know and would keep it in the refridge in his office. I also have Muslim friends who don't eat pork as a rule, but he loves his bacon wrapped scallops when we go out for dinner. ;)

That's why I can see "degrees" of Christianity, and believe that Kirk's is a more fundalmentalist, orthodox, whatever you want to call it, belief. It's not my cup of tea, but I don't believe I'm burning in hell.

[Brian Damage]

So Hitler could have repented his sins, and gotten into Heaven.... but the 6 million Jews he killed would have gone to hell?? Sounds reasonable to me.



It doesn't matter if it sounds reasonable to you, that is the word of the Bible. Keep your sarcastic wise ass comments about God being an ass and you'll be happy in hell stuff going. You are a laugh riot. My beliefs are my beliefs. Two of the commandments are Thou shall not kill and Thou shall have no other God besides me. In this world there are degrees of crimes, but in the commandments, there are no degrees of what is worse. They are all sins. People like to create a God that is comfortable to them instead of accepting God as he is. That is idol worship and a sin. If that makes you comfortable and helps you sleep at night so be it.

[Brian Damage]

I agree with most of what Kirk believes. What I don't agree with is him saying definitively that someone is going to hell. No one but God can judge that.

[barwars]

It doesn't matter if it sounds reasonable to you, that is the word of the Bible. Keep your sarcastic wise ass comments about God being an ass and you'll be happy in hell stuff going. You are a laugh riot. My beliefs are my beliefs. Two of the commandments are Thou shall not kill and Thou shall have no other God besides me. In this world there are degrees of crimes, but in the commandments, there are no degrees of what is worse. They are all sins. People like to create a God that is comfortable to them instead of accepting God as he is. That is idol worship and a sin. If that makes you comfortable and helps you sleep at night so be it.

All I know is that I'll be going to heaven, because I'm a good person, and that's all that matters. And I'll be enjoying it with plenty of Jews, Muslims, Hindus and Buddhists as well.

[Brian Damage]

I'm also sure in your heaven you'll see The Jolly Green Giant, Mickey Mouse, Woody Woodpecker and the Keebler elves. When you get up there, I'm sure he'll have a chuckle with you about calling him an ass.

[ABlairican Pie]

So what if you're just REALLY hungry and there's nothing around you but pigs?

I mean, I love my critters (as everybody by now knows), and I saw Babe, but hey - if I'm starving and its only me and Arnold - There's Gonna Be A Pig Roast People!!!Actually, the reason why God told the Jews they couldn't eat pork for being unclean was because of what we now know it had trichinosis and needed to be cooked at a certain temperature--and we also know about curing it to make it safe to eat.

I'm getting hungry now, for pig roastin' time... pig: pig: pig:

[barwars]

I'm also sure in your heaven you'll see The Jolly Green Giant, Mickey Mouse, Woody Woodpecker and the Keebler elves. When you get up there, I'm sure he'll have a chuckle with you about calling him an ass.

I completely stand by what I said, and will in front of God. "If God is truly like the god that Kirk Cameron believes in.... then he's a total ass." If God condemns those who do not believe in Jesus to hell, then he's an ass, and I want nothing to do with him and I'll gladly spend eternity in hell.

Luckily, I know that God is not evil, so I have no worries.

[ABlairican Pie]

It doesn't matter if it sounds reasonable to you, that is the word of the Bible. Keep your sarcastic wise ass comments about God being an ass and you'll be happy in hell stuff going. You are a laugh riot. My beliefs are my beliefs. Two of the commandments are Thou shall not kill and Thou shall have no other God besides me. In this world there are degrees of crimes, but in the commandments, there are no degrees of what is worse. They are all sins. People like to create a God that is comfortable to them instead of accepting God as he is. That is idol worship and a sin. If that makes you comfortable and helps you sleep at night so be it.What about people who like to create a VENGEFUL God? What if they like to omit God's kindness and compassion? Fred Phelps comes to mind.

[Brian Damage]

Any God other than what God is in the Bible is idol worship.

[ABlairican Pie]

Any God other than what God is in the Bible is idol worship.Which is...?

[barwars]

Any God other than what God is in the Bible is idol worship.

....says the Bible. So in effect, it doesn't matter.

[barwars]

I'm also sure in your heaven you'll see The Jolly Green Giant, Mickey Mouse, Woody Woodpecker and the Keebler elves.

So, in your God's view, people who don't believe in Jesus are no more important than cartoon characters?? Dustin Hoffman, Natalie Portman, Ben Stiller, Woody Allen, Goldie Hawn, Jason Alexander -- might as well be Spongebob, right?

[Janice]

Any God other than what God is in the Bible is idol worship.
Off topic, but Brian you look like a hitman in your avatar, lol. I'll bet nobody messes with you. You belong in a Quentin Tarantino movie. :lol:

[dawsongirl]

I heard their names were Ashley, Britney and Lokeisha (1980s names were big back then).
Sounds like a bad ep of Spriinger doesn't it? And now just to get the flames really stirred up, The Garden of Eden sounds a lot like parts of Arkansas and Alabama! ;) :lol:

:rofl:

[Hollow]

why should I try to come up with my own answers, when God has already done the work for me through His Holy Word?
well IMO you can't really rely on everything the bible says, a lot of it was just told by word of mouth for thousands of years until a written language was developed, and like urban legends, the stories could have been changed and misunderstood through time. i'd only really believe in the main things like the creation of the universe, the crucifixion, etc.

there isn't anything wrong with believing the whole bible is accurate, i just thought i'd point that out.

[Pus$y Galore]

I think they whole "you can't eat pork products" comes from the fact that pork isn't easily digested in the first place, all religion aside. I respect Jewish people who don't eat pork, but wouldn't necessarily do that myself if I were Jewish.


;) Yah, I do know why, I'm just havin' a bit of fun and tryng to lighten the mood a little bit. It's also that in "olden" days if it wasn't cooked or handled properly you could get quite sick (tric.....something or other - one of those diseases than ends in "osis") ;)

[ABlairican Pie]

well IMO you can't really rely on everything the bible says, a lot of it was just told by word of mouth for thousands of years until a written language was developed, and like urban legends, the stories could have been changed and misunderstood through time. i'd only really believe in the main things like the creation of the universe, the crucifixion, etc.

there isn't anything wrong with believing the whole bible is accurate, i just thought i'd point that out.I'm trying to think of how long it was between the time the Bible was passed along orally until it was put onto scrolls and parchments. Also once the Bible was put onto scrolls, generally consisting of leather, the texts were considered so holy only the priest were allowed to touch them with small metal tools.

[Brian Damage]

So, in your God's view, people who don't believe in Jesus are no more important than cartoon characters?? Dustin Hoffman, Natalie Portman, Ben Stiller, Woody Allen, Goldie Hawn, Jason Alexander -- might as well be Spongebob, right?

My point was, I think you are dreaming of a fantasy land if you think everybody gets into heaven. You are just making it easy and convenient for you. All life is important, but only those who accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and saviour get in. Yes, you have to be a good person, but it is far more intricate than you make it seem to be.

[ABlairican Pie]

My point was, I think you are dreaming of a fantasy land if you think everybody gets into heaven. You are just making it easy and convenient for you. All life is important, but only those who accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and saviour get in. Yes, you have to be a good person, but it is far more intricate than you make it seem to be.I remember over 20 years ago when I was trying to do my best to be "good". It was frustrating, because I was thinking, "how good do you have to be to really feel like you're finally there??" I agonized about it for days.

The trick is that some people feel like they have this self-satisfied sense of goodness, "well, I ain't that bad", and don't improve on it, and there are others who feel, like I did, that I could never be good enough. It was a matter of learning and accepting God's grace, which can be the hardest thing in the world. We feel so compelled, even as Christians, that we have to "do" something.

[Brian Damage]

All you can do is be the best that you can be. Nobody is perfect, and God knows that. It really helps to go to church and absorb the word. It also helps to flip through the bible once and awhile and read scripture. Hey, there are plenty of times that I feel like sleeping in instead of going to church for two hours, but I do it because in the end it helps to get closer with God.

[Brian Damage]

....says the Bible. So in effect, it doesn't matter.

It'll matter in the end.

[Hollow]

I'm also sure in your heaven you'll see The Jolly Green Giant, Mickey Mouse, Woody Woodpecker and the Keebler elves. When you get up there, I'm sure he'll have a chuckle with you about calling him an ass.
:grr: it's aside from the point you're making, but i think that if your idea of ultimate bliss includes meeting the jolly green giant and the keebler elves, and you get into heaven, then they'll be there.

[Brian Damage]

So, in your God's view,

It's not my God it is our God. There aren't multiple God's for multiple religions. If you choose not to believe in him or want to finagle him to meet your needs, that is your cross to bear. (No pun intended)

[barwars]

My point was, I think you are dreaming of a fantasy land if you think everybody gets into heaven. You are just making it easy and convenient for you. All life is important, but only those who accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and saviour get in. Yes, you have to be a good person, but it is far more intricate than you make it seem to be.

It just doesn't make any sense that more than half the people God puts on this earth are destined to end up in hell, just because they were born into the "wrong" religion. There are people in the world who have never even heard of Jesus, but I guess it's just their loss, correct?

[barwars]

It's not my God it is our God. There aren't multiple God's for multiple religions. If you choose not to believe in him or want to finagle him to meet your needs, that is your cross to bear. (No pun intended)

But it is your God. The God I know of is not filled with hate for those who happen to not believe in Jesus.

And another thing.... how did people get into heaven before Jesus, and before the Bible was written??

A Jewish person can say the same for their God, as could a Muslim about Allah. Hindus and Buddhists can believe whatever they wish, but the God worshipped by Christians, Jews and Muslisms is one in the same. They have just interpreted him differently. Nobody knows what God is really like, no one but God him(or her)self. Not me, not you, not the men who wrote the Bible.

[Brian Damage]

There are missionaries all over the world that are trying to spread the word of Jesus. It is their loss if they choose not to look deeper than what they were "born" into. I was born Catholic and for years was taught about the Pope and worshipping saints. I was married in a Catholic church, my first born daughter was baptized as a Catholic. Despite that, I felt empty and had no relationship with God. I was just going through the motions. I took it upon myself to seek something more meaningful. Many people in Muslim and Hindu countries have tried to seek out something other than what they were "born" into and were tortured or killed. If you truly and deeply want a relationship with God, it'll find you. Understand?

[*Pleasant Tomorrow*]

What about children who are never taught about Christianity and die before they ever get the chance to?

[Brian Damage]

What about children who are never taught about Christianity and die before they ever get the chance to?

All children are protected under God's blood no matter what religion.

[*Pleasant Tomorrow*]

All children are protected under God's blood no matter what religion.
Sooo, what age do we stop being protected under HIM?

[barwars]

There are missionaries all over the world that are trying to spread the word of Jesus. It is their loss if they choose not to look deeper than what they were "born" into. I was born Catholic and for years was taught about the Pope and worshipping saints. I was married in a Catholic church, my first born daughter was baptized as a Catholic. Despite that, I felt empty and had no relationship with God. I was just going through the motions. I took it upon myself to seek something more meaningful. Many people in Muslim and Hindu countries have tried to seek out something other than what they were "born" into and were tortured or killed. If you truly and deeply want a relationship with God, it'll find you. Understand?

I was born and raised a Catholic as well. I go to church weekly, and I'm very active there as well, with both a job and volunteering. My family is very religious. My grandparents go to mass daily, I don't think they've missed a day in years, and of their 11 kids, six of them work for the church, including my mother; two of them were nuns, and one studied to be a priest. My family is close friends with dozens of priests, some that I would consider personal friends as well. I was always taught, both in and out of church, that God loves all people, and all people from all religions were welcome into heaven. The important thing is to be as good a person as possible, whether you celebrate Hannukah, Christmas, or Ramadan. In fact, in both church and school it has been discussed that although Gandhi was Hindu, he acted more like a true "Christian" than any person to walk the earth since Jesus.

[*Pleasant Tomorrow*]

I was born and raised a Catholic as well. I go to church weekly, and I'm very active there as well, with both a job and volunteering. My family is very religious. Of my grandparents' 11 kids, six of them work for the church, including my mother; two of them were nuns, and one studied to be a priest. I was always taught, both in and out of church, that God loves all people, and all people from all religions were welcome into heaven. The important thing is to be as good a person as possible, whether you celebrate Hannukah, Christmas, or Ramadan. In fact, in both church and school it has been discussed that although Gandhi was Hindu, he acted more like a true "Christian" than any person to walk the earth since Jesus.
:clap:

That's what I believe. If you are a truley good person at heart, you will go to Heaven. Why must believing in the "right" thing judge that. What if the influences in your life led you to believe in something else? I don't find that fair or even logical.

[Brian Damage]

Sooo, what age do we stop being protected under HIM?


There is no definitive age limit so to speak. God doesn't say when you are 18 that's the cut off point. We all know who children are and who are young adults that start to make their own decisions.

[Brian Damage]

:clap:

That's what I believe. If you are a truley good person at heart, you will go to Heaven. Why must believing in the "right" thing judge that. What if the influences in your life led you to believe in something else? I don't find that fair or even logical.

You can be the greatest person on earth, but if you worship a false God and then die and are judged by the true God, how can he allow you into his kingdom? Well, gee God I did the right things, ate right, but I thought you were phoney, please let me in.

[*Pleasant Tomorrow*]

You can be the greatest person on earth, but if you worship a false God and then die and are judged by the true God, how can he allow you into his kingdom? Well, gee God I did the right things, ate right, but I thought you were phoney, please let me in.
Sounds right to me. I thought God was accepting...

[Brian Damage]

Sounds right to me. I thought God was accepting...

...

[Brian Damage]

Sounds right to me. I thought God was accepting...


He is, but you must accept him as your lord and saviour, no ifs ands or buts.

[*Pleasant Tomorrow*]

My huge question is how are we supposed to know what's right? There's so many choices and so many religions. The Bible says only Christians are right, the Koran says only Muslims are right etc etc. Whoever the RIGHT one is (if any of them)...how does He or She or It or whatever expect us, as mere human beings, to know what's right? You have a right to your opinion, Mr. Damage, and because it is your opinion it is right. And like you have a right to your opinion, so does that person or this person who might believe in something different and to them what THEY believe in is right. For me, with that under consideration, it's hard not to be agnostic and acceptant of all ideas. I mean, truely, whoever God is I certainly hope he accepts people regardless if they believe in Him or not. If not, He gave us minds and automatically gave some doubtful minds...like a clear death sentence. That doesn't make sense to me and I don't think any God is like that.

bleh.

[Dean Winchester]

My huge question is how are we supposed to know what's right? There's so many choices and so many religions. The Bible says only Christians are right, the Koran says only Muslims are right etc etc. Whoever the RIGHT one is (if any of them)...how does He or She or It or whatever expect us, as mere human beings, to know what's right? You have a right to your opinion, Mr. Damage, and because it is your opinion it is right. And like you have a right to your opinion, so does that person or this person who might believe in something different and to them what THEY believe in is right. For me, with that under consideration, it's hard not to be agnostic and acceptant of all ideas. I mean, truely, whoever God is I certainly hope he accepts people regardless if they believe in Him or not. If not, He gave us minds and automatically gave some doubtful minds...like a clear death sentence. That doesn't make sense to me and I don't think any God is like that.

bleh.


very true. While Christians are convinced they are the true path to salvation, Muslims, Buddhists, Jews and even SCIENTOLOGISTS think they're path is the only way.

If an Islamic poster came in here and said that everyone besides Muslims are wrong and are going to hell, they wouldn't last here over a day if they said all Christians are going to hell because they're "infidels". Like there's any difference.

[Brad Russ]

well IMO you can't really rely on everything the bible says, a lot of it was just told by word of mouth for thousands of years until a written language was developed, and like urban legends, the stories could have been changed and misunderstood through time. i'd only really believe in the main things like the creation of the universe, the crucifixion, etc.

there isn't anything wrong with believing the whole bible is accurate, i just thought i'd point that out.

I like you, so I hate to disagree with you, but I must. There is actually solid evidence that there was a written language back in the days of Jesus. There was even a written language back in the Old Testament days. What do you think Jesus read to the people in the synagogues, and how was Moses able to read God's Commandments to people if their were no written language??Obviously a written language was around back in those days, or else these things would be impossible.

As far as many parts of the Bible being written thousands of years after Christs' death, that's incorrect as well. That's one of the biggest myths in the worlds history. The Gospel writers were Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, all of whom were Jesus' Disciples. You can read about each one of these people all throughout the Gospels. Unless they lived to be over 1000 years old,there's no way they could have been written thousands of years later. I believe the first Gospel was written around 30 years after Jesus' death, while the last was written 60 or 70 years after his death.

The texts that eventually made up the Bible weren't translated into many languages until a long time later, but all of the words of the New Testament, from Matthew, to the book of Revelation, were written within a 70 year span of Christs' death.

[ABlairican Pie]

The Bible wasn't fully canonized until about 500 years after Christ.

That IS a myth that the Gospels were written thousands of years after Christ, because it means that they would have been written YESTERDAY!! Within the past few decades ago at least in the last century. They were actually written at least a few decades after His death and resurrection.

[Mr. Stefani]

don't use tom cruise as an example to scientology. he's an extremest. he should not represent it but unfort he does. study it. i have been th rough the auditing process. when my bestfriend lost his brother his mom checked him into the center because he was suicidial beyond belief and nothing helped. he 4 years to this day says it was what saved his life. i hate it when people make a joke of it.

/end bitching

[Brad Russ]

I've posed that question to many different people with different Christian beliefs (Protestants, Catholics, Evangelicals) and not one can give me a proper answer. One even dreamt up that there were other kids born, but that the Bible doesn't mention that! :lol: Talk about laughable! And if there were other kids born, then there still had to be incest - you can't get around it.

I have no problem answering this question, I have a definitive answer for you. You are absolutely right, many near relations did sleep together and have children in those times. Iv'e read the Bible a few times, and have been studying it for years, and can say yes, you are absolutely correct. The reason this was the case, is because the world started out with only two people. Near relations had to sleep together to get the world started for the simple fact that there weren't none relations to start the world with. Abraham and Sarah were half brother and sister, and they of course had Isaac. Isaac and Rebekah were cousins, and they eventually had Jacob. There are countless times in the O.T. where near relations came together sexually, simply because there was no other choice. There would be nobody here today had that not happened.

Sleeping with near relations did eventually become unlawful, at the time of Moses. At this time, there were enough people on Earth to where you no longer had to sleep with near relations, so in Leviticus, chapter 18, this behavior was deemed unlawful. That whole chapter is dedicated to telling people that being with a near relation is wrong.

It sounds like those so called Christians you talked to who were unable to give you a proper answer, weren't very Biblically literate. But all a person has to do is study the Bible, and eventually you'll find what you're looking for. I hope I answered this for you. :)

[Pus$y Galore]

I have no problem answering this question, I have a definitive answer for you. You are absolutely right, many near relations did sleep together and have children in those times. Iv'e read the Bible a few times, and have been studying it for years, and can say yes, you are absolutely correct. The reason this was the case, is because the world started out with only two people. Near relations had to sleep together to get the world started for the simple fact that there weren't none relations to start the world with. Abraham and Sarah were half brother and sister, and they of course had Isaac. Isaac and Rebekah were cousins, and they eventually had Jacob. There are countless times in the O.T. where near relations came together sexually, simply because there was no other choice. There would be nobody here today had that not happened.

Sleeping with near relations did eventually become unlawful, at the time of Moses. At this time, there were enough people on Earth to where you no longer had to sleep with near relations, so in Leviticus, chapter 18, this behavior was deemed unlawful. That whole chapter is dedicated to telling people that being with a near relation is wrong.

It sounds like those so called Christians you talked to who were unable to give you a proper answer, weren't very Biblically literate. But all a person has to do is study the Bible, and eventually you'll find what you're looking for. I hope I answered this for you. :)

Well a couple of them were Catholic, and supposedly its the "true" church of Christ - isn't there a passage that involves Peter and says, on this rock (meaning Peter) I will build my Church.
Anyway, you mention Abraham and Sarah (pardon my igornance here), but didn't Adam and Eve have two sons? Where'd Sarah come from? To me, one of those sons had to have had sexually relations with their mother - that's more than a "near" relation - that's direct! Genetically speaking, it should have produced a very inferior race with many genetic problems. The entire world's population is based on this???? And why are some of us black, or white, or brown or asian if we all evolved from two white people?
Does this mean you do not believe in evolution at all?
And again, if the rib thing is a "tale", then where do we draw the line at what is fictitious and what isn't?

[barwars]

The entire world's population is based on this???? And why are some of us black, or white, or brown or asian if we all evolved from two white people?
Does this mean you do not believe in evolution at all?

The human race suppossedly started in Mesopotamia. In the beginning everyone was the same color, but as they moved the sun affected the color of their skin, and as you mentioned, it was genetics that caused people to look "Asian", or "African", or "Hispanic", although none of those terms came about for centuries. Although 99% of the time Jesus is depicted as being white, he would resemble someone from the Middle East more than America.

I believe in both creation and evolution. God created earth, but it was very basic to begin with, but got more and more complex due to evolution.

[ABlairican Pie]

Well a couple of them were Catholic, and supposedly its the "true" church of Christ - isn't there a passage that involves Peter and says, on this rock (meaning Peter) I will build my Church.
Anyway, you mention Abraham and Sarah (pardon my igornance here), but didn't Adam and Eve have two sons? Where'd Sarah come from? To me, one of those sons had to have had sexually relations with their mother - that's more than a "near" relation - that's direct! Genetically speaking, it should have produced a very inferior race with many genetic problems. The entire world's population is based on this???? And why are some of us black, or white, or brown or asian if we all evolved from two white people?
Does this mean you do not believe in evolution at all?
And again, if the rib thing is a "tale", then where do we draw the line at what is fictitious and what isn't?Adam and Eve had two sons at first, Cain and Abel; Cain killed Abel in a fit of rage, but Adam and Eve later had a son named Seth and then had many other sons and daughters. There were hundreds of years after Adam and Eve before the Flood where Noah was saved in the ark, and then some hundreds of years before Abraham and Sarah.

[Pus$y Galore]

Adam and Eve had two sons at first, Cain and Abel; Cain killed Abel in a fit of rage, but Adam and Eve later had a son named Seth and then had many other sons and daughters. There were hundreds of years after Adam and Eve before the Flood where Noah was saved in the ark, and then some hundreds of years before Abraham and Sarah.


So therefore, it proves my point that according the the O/T the human race started off a as bunch of inbreds - not NEAR relations, but DIRECT incest. :rolleyes:

Ya know what? I'll take the theory of evolution and my chances of burning in a hell that won't have a bunch of people who believe they're "Holier than thou" in it thanks! It's all superstitious gobbly-gook to me that just doesn't add up.

[Pus$y Galore]

The human race suppossedly started in Mesopotamia. In the beginning everyone was the same color, but as they moved the sun affected the color of their skin, and as you mentioned, it was genetics that caused people to look "Asian", or "African", or "Hispanic", although none of those terms came about for centuries. Although 99% of the time Jesus is depicted as being white, he would resemble someone from the Middle East more than America.

I believe in both creation and evolution. God created earth, but it was very basic to begin with, but got more and more complex due to evolution.


Jesus was no more white than I am black! He was an Ethopian Jew. He probably was even darker than a Middle Eastern. It kills me that we still make him out to be a blue-eyed, light browned guy with sparkling white teeth - what a white-wash to sell it to the masses!
But according to the Bible, there couldn't have been both evolution and God creation - why would only one male and one female homosapien be formed? The thought is absolutely ridiculous to me and is contradictive.
And if we were all to start out ANY one colour, it would have been black - not white. It's been proven that as the continents were still connected, the mass population was in Africa. The continents divided and those who were in certain areas ended up on those continents, then possibly lightening skintones.

I'm afraid I'm still at a loss for a totally reasonable explanation of my two questions. :confused:

[barwars]

But according to the Bible, there couldn't have been both evolution and God creation - why would only one male and one female homosapien be formed? The thought is absolutely ridiculous to me and is contradictive.

That's why the Bible is supposed to be taken literally, at least in this case.

[Pus$y Galore]

That's why the Bible is supposed to be taken literally, at least in this case.


Yah.....and that's why I just can't grasp it. It goes against what I've been taught I guess. I've been brought up to question and investigate things I guess and probably why my parents turned away from the Church. IMO you can't be a logical thinker and believe everything in the Bible literally. And again, who's to say that Christianity is the bee-all and end-all religion that will get you into heaven - they all believe that.
I've honestly searched for years. I read the Shroud of Turin, and they almost had me there - that would have definitely made me a believer, but then the Catholic Church themselves came along and declared it a hoax (an amazing one at that)! I guess deep down I believe that Christ was a prophet, and a wonderful man, but question whether he was truly the Messiah. I guess I'm just the type of person who needs some sort of physical proof. You would think that more than any other time in history, God would have stepped in when mankind got nuclear technology and was possibly on the verge of blowing the planet to smitherines. That was the time to bring down the Messiah (either the first time, if you're Jewish or the second time if you're Christian). It might have also convinced Mr. L.Ron. Hubbard there that there truly was a higher power than Darth Vader! ;)