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ABlairican Pie
05-31-2005, 09:52 AM
Do The People Of Iraq Have A Right To Resist U.S. Occupation?

Jack Smith

05/29/05 - - Do the people of Iraq have the right to defend themselves against violent foreign invasion and occupation by any means at their disposal against an aggressive and rapacious enemy enjoying overwhelming military superiority?

This is a right Americans unquestionably would invoke were their country invaded and occupied by a foreign power. They would take whatever measures were necessary to defeat the enemy and force it to withdraw.

The United States government supports this position and recognizes its validity in relation to all other nations invaded by foreign aggressors--except when it is Washington that initiates or supports the invasion of another sovereign state. By White House whim, the subject state loses its right to self-defense.

In Iraq, for example, President George W. Bush, who launched the unjust and unlawful invasion over two years ago, is appalled by the suggestion that the Iraqis have a right to fight back. The entire opinion-forming mass media echoes this arrogant perspective. Bush defines resistance to U.S. aggression in Iraq as an act of "terrorism," and not a legitimate struggle to reclaim national sovereignty from the brutal occupation.

Bush declares that the 140,000 American occupation troops must remain to "defend Iraqi democracy" against the resistance. Aside from the obvious fact that the Quisling government of a subjugated country under foreign military control cannot qualify as a democracy, Bush disregards the fact that the raison dıêtre of the resistance is predicated on the presence of occupation forces he refuses to withdraw.

The American antiwar movement is disunited on the important question of whether or not to support the right of the Iraqi people to resist U.S. aggression as best they can, including by force of arms. No group that supports the resistance puts this view forward as a basis for working with other peace groups. It is as a statement of political principle, not a unity demand.

Within the broad political spectrum of the peace movement, many local and national peace groups either oppose supporting Iraqiıs right to resist the occupation or refuse to take a public position. Most of these groups entertain moderate or liberal agendas. A number of left groups, however, are certainly included.

One of the two principal peace coalitions in the United States, United for Peace and Justice, does not put forward the view that the Iraqi people have a right to resistance U.S. aggression or address the question at its rallies, according to its leadership, because some groups in UPJ "strongly oppose" that view.

The other national coalition, ANSWER (Act Now to Stop War & End Racism), takes the following position, in response to our query May 27:

"We support the right of self-determination in the struggle against imperialist domination, and believe the Iraqi people have the right to resist occupation by any means chosen. The right to resist occupation is a concept enshrined in international law. . . . This is not a matter of political or ideological affinity. Nor is it an issue of the tactics of war --al of which are ugly. It boils down to this simple equation: On the one side are all the forces fighting a war against colonialism and occupation, and on the other side are the colonialists, neo-colonialists and their Iraqi agents. In that struggle we take an unambiguous position opposing the colonizers. To do otherwise would be to put entirely secondary issues --ideology, war tactics, etc. --at the forefront, while ignoring the core issue of colonialism in Iraq and elsewhere. Moreover, since we are a U.S. antiwar movement, and it is our country that has invaded Iraq, we are obligated to be crystal clear on this issue."

This writer is in agreement with that position, as was the case in the 1960s, well before ANSWER came along, when sectors of the antiwar movement vociferously objected to supporting the struggle, or at least supporting the right to struggle, of the National Liberation Front to free southern Vietnam from an even more treacherous American intervention.

We will discuss the various views circulating in the peace movement and on the left, but first letıs examine the importance, composition, and methodologies of the Iraqi resistance.

It is crucial to understand that were it not for the Iraqi resistance, the U.S. would have won a swift victory in Iraq and quickly implemented the Bush administrationıs neoconservative plan to extend American hegemony throughout the entire Middle East under the guise of "promoting democracy." Had Iraq simply surrendered, this example of the Pentagonıs invincibility would have demoralized the entire region. It certainly would have tempted the White House to barge into "rogue" Syria and Iran to replace their governments with regimes subordinate not only to Washington but to the requirements of corporate globalization and transnational capital, which, after all, is what ³democratization² is all about.

Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld even had a simple formula for obtaining this objective. Conservative Harvard historian Niall Ferguson, who supports the notion that an explicit American empire would be good for the world, wrote in the New York Times May 24 that Rumsfeld was guided by a theoretical blueprint for conquest called the "10-30-30 timetable: 10 days should suffice to topple a rogue regime, 30 days to establish order in its wake, and 30 more days to prepare for the next military undertaking."

The resistance, thus, has erected two great obstacles in the path of President Bushıs drive to control the vast petroleum reserves that have transformed barren deserts into the most strategically important region of the world today. First, the myth of invincibility has been shattered by a small irregular urban guerrilla force, Rumsfeldıs plans for conquest have gone up in smoke, and the Bush administration has evidently curbed some of its more unsavory ambitions.

Second, the unexpected difficulties the resistance has created for Washingtonıs occupation force, spplemented by the existence of a large U.S. antiwar movement ,have been the main reason why a majority of the American people feel that the Iraq war has not been worth the cost of U.S. lives and dollars. This sentiment may undermine Bush for the rest of his term in office unless the resistance is broken quickly, which is now the Bush administrationıs highest priority.

The nature of the fight back itself has been grossly distorted by the mass media at the behest of the White House. It is important in this regard to recognize three things: 1. The resistance is composed of political as well as armed elements. 2. The masses of Iraqis oppose the occupation and want U.S. troops to get out. 3. The resistance enjoys support from the people of Iraq, despite U.S. efforts to neutralize various constituencies through pressure, manipulation, grandiose promises, threats and bribery. How else could an armed urban guerrilla force function in heavily occupied territory without the support of the people?

The forces of resistance are diverse, decentralized and led by many different factions, including reactionary fundamentalists. There are no discernable left socialists or communists in the leadership, largely because the left has been suppressed for decades. Elements in the resistance range from patriotic secular nationalists to secular Baıathists, to Sunni and Shia religious fundamentalists, to pan-Islamic foreign jihadists, to tribal-based groups with militias and so on. This is partially a reflection of the religious and ethnic differences of an historic nature which the foreign invader has taken pains to exacerbate under the old colonial rule of divide and conquer.

Many of these groups use different tactics, armed or political, to weaken the enemy. Their activities are often not coordinated, and the actions of one are not necessarily the practices of another. But together they comprise an effective fighting opposition to Bush of Baghdad and his Iraqi minions seeking power in a government controlled by historyıs sixth (or is it seventh?) empire to call Mesopotamia its own caliphate < this time ruled from Christendom-on-Potomac.

The resistance war is largely being fought with small arms and homemade bombs. There are no countries who would dare supply more powerful weapons for fear of instant retaliation from the United States. Arrayed against these forces is an occupying power possessing the greatest arsenal of weapons, tanks, planes, communications equipment and surveillance devices in human history. Aside from street patrols, supply convoys, campaigns to round-up anti-U.S. suspects and occasional large-scale attacks, American forces are protected in military bases that are extremely difficult to penetrate. There are no hiding places for combatants, such as forests and mountains, forcing them to fight almost exclusively in heavily populated cities, towns and along certain highways.

These subjective and objective conditions determine the composition of the resistance and the means deployed to oust the invader. This is why the car bomb and suicide bombers are deployed in the towns and cities. They are the most powerful weapons the guerrillas have, and they can be transported in daylight. The targets are police stations, military checkpoints, passing U.S. patrols and officials who cooperate with the occupation authorities. The nature of car bombings in such tight quarters results in civilians casualties, but they are rarely if ever the primary target. Some of the attacks that seem directed only at civilians may well reflect sectarian religious provocations, not necessarily associated with the resistance.

Why do many antiwar groups and sectors of the left withhold support from the Iraqi resistance, or even the right to resistance? Clearly, this reluctance strengthens Bushıs contention that the resistance is composed of nothing but unworthy terrorists intent upon crushing Iraqıs nascent ³democracy,² the latest justification for keeping the army of occupation in Iraq indefinitely.

The pacifists are in a different situation than the rest of the movement on this question. They in principle oppose both defensive as well as offensive violence, and many would support nonviolent resistance to the American occupation, not that there appears to be any. At issue are those larger sectors of the movement which do not oppose violence in principal and who would utilize violence to ward off an attack on America or other countries, but who will not extend that right to Iraq, the very country their government is oppressing.

In our view, there are two reasons the liberal sector of the peace movement in particular tends to withhold support from the insurgency. First there is the political factor, as demonstrated in last yearıs presidential elections where the candidate virtually all liberals supported was committed to winning a victory in Iraq. John Kerryıs pro-war stance continues to reverberate, manifesting itself in a variety of subtle ways.

Some antiwar friends have told me that they hesitate to call for immediate withdrawal "because we are in so deep it would cause chaos if we pulled out now." For others, who frequently proclaim they "support the troops," it's must difficult to suggest the resistance has a right to kill those troops in defense of national sovereignty. Others are beset by the possibility that the Iraqi people might be better off today than under the previous regime which Bush deposed, despite the war, occupation, 100,000 deaths, deepening chaos and the prospect of civil war.

The second reason seems be a desire for respectability coupled with the fear that appearing to support the resistance will cause the right-wing to label individuals and the movement "unpatriotic" and "disloyal." These are serious charges, but todayıs dreadful political environment is not comparable to periods of repression in the past, such as when they were leveled in the red-hunting 1950s or a few years after World War I. In any event, the right-wing already claims the entire movement is composed of traitors, communists, flag burners, and Bush haters. Thatıs just every day rightist rhetoric.

The political left is also divided on the question. Many left groups, peace organizations with an anti-imperialist perspective, socialists and those further to the left explicitly support the right of Iraq to engage in a guerrilla war to defeat aggression.

But some others on the left express various qualms, mostly about the composition and the tactics of some elements in the resistance. Several sources said they were uncomfortable because "there are Baıathist elements active in the struggle and we donıt want to see the return of forces favorable to Saddam Hussein," as though the question of who will ultimately govern Iraq is for the American left to decide. Others hold back because "Sunni Wahabbists" are part of the diverse fight-back effort. And of course the supposed presence of al-Qaeda operatives, although very small in number, is another reason. Additional arguments are critical of guerrilla tactics.

Another sector of the left and antiwar movement is simply resorting to political expediency and perhaps a soupçon of opportunism, modifying its views in order to attract "mainstream" elements to its banner and if that means not backing the right to resistance (or for that matter, not calling for an end to the occupation of the Palestinian territories), so be it. Others see the resistance as constituting an obstacle to the creation of an improbable progressive coalition of forces in Iraq who are essentially passive toward the occupation in order to contest for influence, or at least be invited to table where the powerful dine. Some are supporters of the course followed by the Iraqi Communist Party (which opposes the resistance, seeks a place at the aforementioned table, and is willing to work with the occupation).

In a recent conversation in New York following the 2005 Left Forum this writer was confronted by several people of social-democratic and left disposition (who strongly supported immediate withdrawal) after indicating that it was correct to back the right to resistance. "Do you support car-bombings that kill innocent civilians, too? I was asked by one. "Do you think itıs okay that they behead and kidnap people?" said another. "Do you want the Baıathists to put in another Saddam?" queried a third. "Why not give the middle forces in Iraq a chance to work things out without the background noise of guerrilla war continually disrupting any chance of dialogue?" intoned a fourth. And lastly, "Doesnıt your position lead to civil war?"

My reply, in effect, was a follows:

It is not up to the peace movement and the left in the United States to dictate the terms by which a subject people is allowed to manifest opposition to the violent invasion and occupation of their own country by our government. The Iraqi people, like all people throughout the world, are entitled to wage their struggle against foreign invaders by any means at their disposal.

Given that the Iraqi people suffered a dozen years of killer sanctions and frequent bombings by U.S. and British warplanes, followed by a "shock-and-awe" invasion and a recklessly repressive and racist occupation that has deprived many of them of reasonable living conditions, their means are quite limited. Their entire society is under intense surveillance and there is no freedom for its people. They cannot fight a conventional war. They do not have an armed forces to defend their rights. The task of the army of the unemployed, who are being trained by the Pentagon to be members of the "Iraqi Army," is to suppress the struggle for national liberation on behalf of the invader. So they use the means and tactics at their command.

Does that mean one must therefore support some of the excesses of the resistance? No. It means we recognize that in any struggle of this nature excesses take place, although they are simply not comparable to the "excesses" involved in George Bushıs attack on Iraq. If we are so concerned about excesses, the task is not to haughtily distance ourselves from the resistance but to intensify our campaign to remove the root cause of the resistance, which is the continuing occupation and domination of a sovereign country. At this stage, and I hope Iım wrong, the U.S. has caused such a catastrophic disintegration of a complex and ancient society that it will take a long time with many hardships before things settle down, even if the U.S. is kicked out.²

Listen to what our conservative ally, former UN arms inspector Scott Ritter, had to say about this several months ago when he argued it was in Washingtonıs interest to withdraw: ³The battle for Iraq's sovereign future is a battle for the hearts and minds of the Iraqi people. As things stand, it appears that victory will go to the side most in tune with the reality of the Iraqi society of today: the leaders of the anti-U.S. resistance. . . . ³

If the U.S. continues its present course, he suggests, ³We will suffer a decade-long nightmare that will lead to the deaths of thousands more Americans and tens of thousands of Iraqis. We will witness the creation of a viable and dangerous anti-American movement in Iraq that will one day watch as American troops unilaterally withdraw from Iraq every bit as ignominiously as Israel did from Lebanon. The calculus is quite simple: the sooner we bring our forces home, the weaker this movement will be. And, of course, the obverse is true: the longer we stay, the stronger and more enduring this byproduct of Bush's elective war on Iraq will be. There is no elegant solution to our Iraqi debacle. It is no longer a question of winning but rather of mitigating defeat.²

Whether sectors of our movement support the right to resistance or not, the fact remains that this major setback for the Bush administration would not have come pass without the extraordinary uprising that developed in the aftermath of Rumsfeldıs "10 day² war and 30-day restoration of order." When the first signs of a fightback occurred, Bush smirked, "Bring 'em on!" Well, as an antiwar activist who of course would prefer a resistance movement with a different political leadership, I'm just glad they exercised their right to resist, or to "come on", as Bush taunted.

Without that fightback by the Iraqi resistance, a triumphant Bush by now might be dancing a jig in Damascus or Teheran, or wherever else his neoconservative inclinations and tanks were prepared to lead him.

Jack Smith: jacdon@earthlink.net

Janice
05-31-2005, 10:31 AM
Do the people of Iraq have a right to resist U.S. occupation? Yes, they do, but this isn't an occupation. It's a liberation, and the Iraqi people have voted and are fighting with other countries against the insurgents, for democracy.

Ags2000
05-31-2005, 12:13 PM
Do the people of Iraq have a right to resist U.S. occupation? Yes, they do, but this isn't an occupation. It's a liberation, and the Iraqi people have voted and are fighting with other countries against the insurgents, for democracy.

Yeah, what she said.

D

Max Whittaker
05-31-2005, 03:11 PM
Do the people of Iraq have a right to resist U.S. occupation? Yes, they do, but this isn't an occupation. It's a liberation, and the Iraqi people have voted and are fighting with other countries against the insurgents, for democracy.

What if they don't see it that way?

James"Thunder"Early
05-31-2005, 03:14 PM
What if they don't see it that way?That's the problem, they don't see it that way. regardless of why it was done it's still an occupation which is why there is some much friction.

Ags2000
05-31-2005, 03:30 PM
That's the problem, they don't see it that way. regardless of why it was done it's still an occupation which is why there is some much friction.


That's not entirely true. The MAJORITY of the Iraqi CITIZENS (not people crossing the border to be involved in jihad) like and appreciate the American soldiers being there. There are a few (compared to the number who support) who disagree and like the old regime. Between them, and other Arab's crossing the border to be involved THAT is why there is so much friction.

D

James"Thunder"Early
05-31-2005, 03:36 PM
That's not entirely true. The MAJORITY of the Iraqi CITIZENS (not people crossing the border to be involved in jihad) like and appreciate the American soldiers being there. There are a few (compared to the number who support) who disagree and like the old regime. Between them, and other Arab's crossing the border to be involved THAT is why there is so much friction.

DNo one likes foreign invaders. Most Iraqi people don't carry out attacks, but they don't like the US in their country.

dlemond
05-31-2005, 03:40 PM
There is no doubt we are in Iraq for our own designs as well as for the liberation of the Iraqi people. Get rid of the dictatorship and help ourselves out if we can. No kidding, is there oil there?

I think the one thing the world looks so lightly upon is that the US was attacked on its own soil for the first time since Pearl Harbor, and the retaliation against that original attack ultimately ended in 2 atomic bombs.
Killing 110,000 people in 2 shots. AND more people were killed this time in the US.

That is almost a dare- you dont think the terrorists laughed their freaking asses off?- and we acted way too casual about it. I know you can't aimlessly flail at a target that seems invisible. But dont pull my chain and say the whole Middle East doesn't know what's going on. Tough crap back in 1945 and today, oh excuse me, can I ask you a question?

Let's be clear. If Reagan was president and there was no Soviet Union, you'd see the Middle East as a glass factory right now. No question. Is that right? Is that reactionary and lacking ultimate vision? Maybe.

If you are a liberal I don't need to hear your pathetic rhetoric. Go tell a family victim of 9/11, I'm sure they will listen. Your talk will make perfect sense.

James"Thunder"Early
05-31-2005, 03:44 PM
There is no doubt we are in Iraq for our own designs as well as for the liberation of the Iraqi people. Get rid of the dictatorship and help ourselves out if we can. No kidding, is there oil there?

I think the one thing the world looks so lightly upon is that the US was attacked on its own soil for the first time since Pearl Harbor, and the retaliation against that original attack ultimately ended in 2 atomic bombs.
Killing 110,000 people in 2 shots. AND more people were killed this time in the US.

That is almost a dare- you dont think the terrorists laughed their freaking asses off?- and we acted way too casual about it. I know you can't aimlessly flail at a target that seems invisible. But dont pull my chain and say the whole Middle East doesn't know what's goning on. Tough crap back in 1945 and today, oh excuse me, can I ask you a question?

Let's be clear. If Reagan was president and there was no Soviet Union, you'd see the Middle East as a glass factory right now. No question. Is that right? Is that reactionary and lacking ultimate vision? Maybe.

If you are a liberal I don't need to hear your pathetic rhetoric. Go tell a family victim of 9/11, I'm sure they will listen. Your talk will make perfect sense.Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11. This whole Iraq war was not about 9/11.

dlemond
05-31-2005, 03:47 PM
Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11. This whole Iraq war was not about 9/11.

I'm sorry, I need to jump ahead.

Where is the terrorism? Where are the car bombing lunatics?
I said you can't just flail into the wind so you pick your battles, and Iraq was a harboring hive of crap. Evil I dare say.

And if you think Iraq is not in some sense about 9/11 you are blind.

James"Thunder"Early
05-31-2005, 03:49 PM
I'm sorry, I need to jump ahead.

Where is the terrorism? Where are the car bombing lunatics?
I said you can't just flail into the wind so you pick your battles, and Iraq was a harboring hive of crap. Evil I dare say.

And if you think Iraq is not in some sense about 9/11 you are blind.Bush himself said Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11.

dlemond
05-31-2005, 03:56 PM
Bush himself said Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11.

Yeah and my property taxes have nothing to due with democrats. Let's be real here. Bush can say whatever he wants, he's appeasing your liberal concerns with his rhetoric. Are you serious in your pathetic lament that there is no terrorist link in Iraq. They are just freelance carbombing patriots who have no link or urge attributed to Al Qaeda or any sort of Middle East movement.

Yes, everything in the middle east acts independently.
How old are you?

Keep shinining those rose colored glasses and get back to me when you can get into a bar legally.

Max Whittaker
05-31-2005, 04:05 PM
I think the one thing the world looks so lightly upon is that the US was attacked on its own soil for the first time since Pearl Harbor...


If you are a liberal I don't need to hear your pathetic rhetoric. Go tell a family victim of 9/11, I'm sure they will listen. Your talk will make perfect sense.

You are wrong there. The world did not look lightly upon our tragady, at all. They cried for us. They just don't like the arrogance that every American policy progects.

And I have a problem with your last statement. You are dismising a person before even hearing them out. Everyone is different. You only stand to gain greater understanding if you look at things from another angle.

Max Whittaker
05-31-2005, 04:08 PM
Yeah and my property taxes have nothing to due with democrats. Let's be real here. Bush can say whatever he wants, he's appeasing your liberal concerns with his rhetoric. Are you serious in your pathetic lament that there is no terrorist link in Iraq. They are just freelance carbombing patriots who have no link or urge attributed to Al Qaeda or any sort of Middle East movement.

Yes, everything in the middle east acts independently.
How old are you?

Keep shinining those rose colored glasses and get back to me when you can get into a bar legally.

The terrorists came after the government fell. They realized that this occupation was the perfect opportunity to hit our interests overseas. So they came. They were not there before. In fact, Bin Laden is said to have a dislike for Saddam.

dlemond
05-31-2005, 04:09 PM
You are wrong there. The world did not look lightly upon our tragady, at all. They cried for us. They just don't like the arrogance that every American policy progects.

And I have a problem with your last statement. You are dismising a person before even hearing them out. Everyone is different. You only stand to gain greater understanding if you look at things from another angle.

No, I understand what you are saying and you are right about listening to other people.

But I think you are wrong about the world's sympathy with us, sorry, don't buy it, lived through it.

And apparently we are not such a fearful country, not that it is a good thing to be feared, but knocking off 5,000 people in one day deserves a serious statement.

Max Whittaker
05-31-2005, 04:19 PM
No, I understand what you are saying and you are right about listening to other people.

But I think you are wrong about the world's sympathy with us, sorry, don't buy it, lived through it.

And apparently we are not such a fearful country, not that it is a good thing to be feared, but knocking off 5,000 people in one day deserves a serious statement.

I also lived through it. Millions of people sent out their condolences. Nearly every country stood by us, especially the ones that live with terrorism on a daily basis, like Isreal. They expected a serious statement, as did I. What we got was a clumsey statement and conflicting policies.

James"Thunder"Early
05-31-2005, 04:20 PM
Yeah and my property taxes have nothing to due with democrats. Let's be real here. Bush can say whatever he wants, he's appeasing your liberal concerns with his rhetoric. Are you serious in your pathetic lament that there is no terrorist link in Iraq. They are just freelance carbombing patriots who have no link or urge attributed to Al Qaeda or any sort of Middle East movement.

Yes, everything in the middle east acts independently.
How old are you?

Keep shinining those rose colored glasses and get back to me when you can get into a bar legally.The 9/11 commission said that Iraq didn't plan 9/11. Bush himself said Saddam had nothing to do with 9/11, he wanted to get rid of him because of WMDs. You have no knowledge of this situation at all.

dlemond
05-31-2005, 04:23 PM
I also lived through it. Millions of people sent out their condolences. Nearly every country stood by us, especially the ones that live with terrorism on a daily basis, like Isreal. They expected a serious statement, as did I. What we got was a clumsey statement and conflicting policies.

I totally agree with you.

I just doubt some of the sympathy, I mean, you almost could feel some countries- like France- thinking we deserved what happened. That is of course my opinion but I'm sorry it seemed apparent.

James"Thunder"Early
05-31-2005, 04:25 PM
No, I understand what you are saying and you are right about listening to other people.

But I think you are wrong about the world's sympathy with us, sorry, don't buy it, lived through it.

And apparently we are not such a fearful country, not that it is a good thing to be feared, but knocking off 5,000 people in one day deserves a serious statement.You're confusing two different things. after 9/11 other countries we're sending condolences and the allies put troops in Afghanistan. But, just because some countries didn't want to help in the Iraq war they aren't sympathetic to the US. The Iraq war wasn't part of the response to 9/11 it was a whole different ballgame.

dlemond
05-31-2005, 04:29 PM
You're confusing two different things. after 9/11 other countries we're sending condolences and the allies put troops in Afghanistan. But, just because some countries didn't want to help in the Iraq war they aren't sympathetic to the US. The Iraq war wasn't part of the response to 9/11 it was a whole different ballgame.

OK, I don't want to argue. But regardless of all this... I don't care what anyone says... I know in my heart that the terrorism in the Middle East stretches through each border. That is my opnion and you can doubt it, fine.

Way too obvious, the whole thing, even our so called allies are connected. And, the US knows it too...

Max Whittaker
05-31-2005, 04:47 PM
Alright, lets stick to the topic at hand. If the Iraqi people view this as an occupation, do they have the right to resist?

James"Thunder"Early
05-31-2005, 04:50 PM
Alright, lets stick to the topic at hand. If the Iraqi people view this as an occupation, do they have the right to resist?If they view as an occupation, I think they have the right to resist, but not violently.

dlemond
05-31-2005, 04:51 PM
I'm not even sure what your opinion is. Yes, the Middle East has terrorism, but my point is the Iraq war wasn't in response to 9/11, it was about WMDs. and there is no evidence any of the allies had a hand in 9/11.

No no no, I don't mean the allies- the real allies. I mean the Middle East nations that pretend to be our friends. It's so transparent I think I must be a total pessimist or just aware.

And do i really have to tell you why we are in Iraq? I don't pretend it is for the most noble of causes.

Fleet
05-31-2005, 06:21 PM
Do the people of Iraq have a right to resist U.S. occupation? Yes, they do, but this isn't an occupation. It's a liberation, and the Iraqi people have voted and are fighting with other countries against the insurgents, for democracy.
Yeah, we liberated Japan. Even though we "occupied" them for 7 years after WWII, it really wasn't an occupation because we were helping to set up a new (democratic) gov't. Sound familiar, Mr. Smith?

Fleet
05-31-2005, 06:24 PM
OK, I don't want to argue. But regardless of all this... I don't care what anyone says... I know in my heart that the terrorism in the Middle East stretches through each border. That is my opnion and you can doubt it, fine.
Not only that, but Bush said this is a war on terrorism and those countries who *harbor* terrorists. And Iraq certainly harbored (and funded and supported) terrorists.

Fleet
05-31-2005, 06:27 PM
That's the problem, they don't see it that way. regardless of why it was done it's still an occupation which is why there is some much friction.
It's not the Iraqi people who are causing the friction... it's mainly the terrorists (most from Iran) who are coming into Iraq fighting our troops.

D-Dey
06-01-2005, 09:26 AM
The 9/11 commission said that Iraq didn't plan 9/11. Bush himself said Saddam had nothing to do with 9/11, he wanted to get rid of him because of WMDs.


And because Saddam also supported terrorism, that was another reason Bush wanted to get rid of him. Former Senator Bob Graham criticized Bush for attacking Iraq even though they had nothing to do with 9/11, and yet he himself advocates attacking the Hezbollah, who also had nothing to do with 9/11. Does this mean it's alright for Democrats to attack other terrorists besides Al-Qaida, and not Republicans? If that's the case, something is wrong with that mentality. The mistaken belief among the peace movement however is that this is a case of the people fighting against the occupation, when in fact it's one of extremists, and criminals who just want power. If the peace movement were right about the insurgents then they would never have attacked the UN Compound, Shiite mosques during traditional rituals, or relief workers trying to aleve the suffering of the people. Margaret Hassan former Iraqi head of CARE International was very much opposed to the war, and yet some of the enemies killed her anyhow. No, you can't convince me this is a case of the people fighting the occupation, and therefore you can't convince me we're on the wrong side.

D-Dey
06-01-2005, 09:29 AM
It's not the Iraqi people who are causing the friction... it's mainly the terrorists (most from Iran) who are coming into Iraq fighting our troops.


Actaully, Iran and the Hezbollah only support the Shi'ite radicals in Iraq. Abu Musab al-Zarqawi is a Sunni, a Jordanian, and a member of Al-Qaida. Plus, insurgents have come from all over the Middle East to join one faction or another, not just Iran.

Fleet
06-01-2005, 06:02 PM
Plus, insurgents have come from all over the Middle East to join one faction or another, not just Iran.
A large amount are from Iran. And they're not "insurgents," they are terrorists (also baby-killers).

Pus$y Galore
06-02-2005, 07:27 PM
I totally agree with you.

I just doubt some of the sympathy, I mean, you almost could feel some countries- like France- thinking we deserved what happened. That is of course my opinion but I'm sorry it seemed apparent.


Boy that sure wasn't the feeling here. Many people, including myself put out American flags and little roadside memorials everywhere. We were just as shocked initially as the U.S. was. It affected me for months and I couldn't stop watching coverage. Believe me, when it came to 9/11 Canada was fully behind the U.S. in every way. Some of our special forces were the first to go in with special U.S. forces to Afghanistan. It changed however with Iraq, but that doesn't mean the majority of us have turned our backs on the U.S.. I would hope our friendship would run deeper than that.

Pus$y Galore
06-02-2005, 07:29 PM
You're confusing two different things. after 9/11 other countries we're sending condolences and the allies put troops in Afghanistan. But, just because some countries didn't want to help in the Iraq war they aren't sympathetic to the US. The Iraq war wasn't part of the response to 9/11 it was a whole different ballgame.:nod: patriot:

ABlairican Pie
06-03-2005, 12:54 AM
Bottom line:we are there to protect the Iraqi people from terrorism. Get used to it, liberals.I thought it was to protect the United States from the Iraqis, whom we have deemed as terrorists.

You learn something new every day. :bonk: :doh:

ABlairican Pie
06-03-2005, 01:48 AM
Originally posted by Captain ABlairica:
I thought it was to protect the United States from the Iraqis, whom we have deemed as terrorists.


Talking to someone like you is a waste of time. You always twist my words around to suit your own radical
liberal agenda. You make me ashamed to be a fellow FOL fan.I haven't twisted your words around. This has been the common understanding of why we are in Iraq. I don't think I follow a "radical liberal" agenda. I happen to be a person who is a little less conservative than people would have me be. But to people who embrace a more extremist viewpoint, being "pretty much a liberal" is always going to come across as "a total dyed-in-the-wool commie pinko liberal heretic."

How do I "shame" you as a fellow FOL fan? Have I done something to smear the memory of the show and all that it has tried to teach us? The Facts of Life has featured more truth and honesty than all the politics over the airwaves, in my opinion.

D-Dey
06-08-2005, 12:27 PM
I thought it was to protect the United States from the Iraqis, whom we have deemed as terrorists.




It works both ways. If we thwart the terrorism that's going on in Iraq now, we can prevent the country from being taken over by those who might seek to turn the country back into a terrorist-sponsoring nation, whehter they're radical Shi'ites who are cheered on by Iran and the Hezbollah, or radical Sunnis who are tied to Al-Qaida.