Burned Out

[doggirl80]

I so remember that episode, how the fire started, everything. Probably the two things that stick out in my mind in regards to the episode are when Michael aires his pain and frustration over first, losing his wife and now, the house. You can see the sadness in his face and how Sandy encourages her brother. She throws an arm around him and says something like, "Hey big brother, you'll handle this." The other moment causes a jolt to the stomach and a few tears is when David walks into his room and holds the now-burnt photo of his mom and Sandy comes in and David hugs her and cries. It such a sweet, yet sad episode. God bless

[boechsner]

Probably the most unforgettable episode of the series.

[Edster2973]

The episode was very well acted, but there are a few holes in the continuity. Firstly, the episode aired under the title 'Valerie's Family'. Well, where was Valerie's family? Where were her parents, who would be the kids' grandparents? Wouldn't they have wanted to help them out? Or how about her sisters? Where was Annie Steck, Valerie's friend? Didn't she live close enough to the Hogans that her elm tree was clogging the Hogans' pipes, and yet she's no where to be seen when her dead friend's family is burnt out of their house?

I know they tried to phase out Valerie's influence as much as possible, but Valerie the mother was nonetheless an integral part of the show. She loved her family immensely, especially her boys, and yet the almost total gloss of her involvement made the show less realistic. There was just something that wasn't right about everything when she was killed off, mainly the lack of mourning on her behalf and, moreso, the lack of mentioning her. That wouldn't have happened in real life and it impeded my enjoyment of this episode...

Ed

[boechsner]

Originally posted by Edster2973
The episode was very well acted, but there are a few holes in the continuity. Firstly, the episode aired under the title 'Valerie's Family'. Well, where was Valerie's family? Where were her parents, who would be the kids' grandparents? Wouldn't they have wanted to help them out? Or how about her sisters? Where was Annie Steck, Valerie's friend? Didn't she live close enough to the Hogans that her elm tree was clogging the Hogans' pipes, and yet she's no where to be seen when her dead friend's family is burnt out of their house?

I know they tried to phase out Valerie's influence as much as possible, but Valerie the mother was nonetheless an integral part of the show. She loved her family immensely, especially her boys, and yet the almost total gloss of her involvement made the show less realistic. There was just something that wasn't right about everything when she was killed off, mainly the lack of mourning on her behalf and, moreso, the lack of mentioning her. That wouldn't have happened in real life and it impeded my enjoyment of this episode...

Ed

Well, do keep in mind that this episode was orignally filmed with Valerie. They fired her a week after filming this episode and then they re-did this episode with Sandy. I would love to see the original Valerie version, but what are the odds of that!?

[Edster2973]

Originally posted by boechsner
Well, do keep in mind that this episode was orignally filmed with Valerie. They fired her a week after filming this episode and then they re-did this episode with Sandy. I would love to see the original Valerie version, but what are the odds of that!?

Nope, I'm sorry but you're wrong there. This episode was NOT filmed with Valerie. The only episode that was filmed with Valerie was the season opener. When Valerie was fired, they redid some of that episode with Sandy involved. Jeremy Licht verified this in an interview a while back. There is no lost Valerie fire episode...

Ed

[boechsner]

Originally posted by Edster2973
Nope, I'm sorry but you're wrong there. This episode was NOT filmed with Valerie. The only episode that was filmed with Valerie was the season opener. When Valerie was fired, they redid some of that episode with Sandy involved. Jeremy Licht verified this in an interview a while back. There is no lost Valerie fire episode...

Ed

Well, I heard differently. I heard that one episode was filmed without Valerie, saying she was out of town. Then Harper returned and filmed an episode before being fired. I'm assuming, probably both episodes were re-worked. What episodes were they? What was the season opener as you refer to it, that Valerie was in?

[boechsner]

Never mind. I found your answer on a different message posted about the Burned Out episode. However, now I need to find the Valerie Harper message board that states that Burned Out was filmed with her in it originally.

[boechsner]

Let us go to another topic. Episode production numbers. Do you know the situation? Movin' On has a production number of 176606.

Actually in production order it goes as follows:

176601 Take My Wife, Please
176603 A Room with No View
176604 Liars and Other Strangers
176605 Burned Out
176606 Movin' On
176607 You've Got to Believe


Also, production order problems exist in the 2nd season episodes.

Is there anyway to confirm that the episode The Way We're Not is episode 175612 and not 175602. It couldn't be 602 because Mrs. Poole is introduced in 176605, plus 175612 is better suited to Jason Bateman's short haircut he got.

Along these same lines, the production numbers for Dr. No, One of a Kind and Caught on a Hot Tin Roof are totally up in the air, as well.

[Edster2973]

I always thought that production order was meant to show the order in which the episodes were all finished, meaning adding music, editing scenes, etc.

I didn't take it to mean that it was to signify when the episode was shot. Am I wrong in this? If not, perhaps that explains why there are discrepancies in the numbering.

As for Valerie Harper being involved in 'Burned Out', she herself said on a talk show that she had only completed one episode during the 3rd season, and that was the season opener. Perhaps 'Burned Out' was originally conceived to include her in it, but by the time they shot it, she was long gone and her character was killed off. She in no way participated in that episode.

Ed

[doggirl80]

Perhaps if there's a DVD released and they'll show deleted of extended scenes. God bless

[ZKS]

Yeah Production Order is the order they shoot the episodes in, so some later season episodes could actually have been shot before ones earlier in the season, thank goodness for airdate order :lol:

I didn't know any of that you guys posted though :eek:

[Edster2973]

What was the season opener as you refer to it, that Valerie was in?

I thought I had answered this but it looks like I was wrong. Sorry about that. Anyway...

The only Season 3 episode that Valerie Harper starred in was the 3rd season opener. The aired version of this episode had as its plot Mark going to school blindfolded for a school project about sensory deprivation. Sandy was introduced in this episode by Michael. He tells David that he wants him to look after Sandy (who is explained to be Michael's kid sister) since she may need help but isn't the type to ask for it. Prior to Sandy's entrance, Michael appeared to the boys in the kitchen, all apprehensive about 'returning' to flying. We then learn from David that it had been 6 months since Valerie had died and that they felt it was high time Michael got back in the air.

Later on, the twins end up fighting over the science project (Willie served as a sort of human seeing eye dog for the blindfolded Mark, who in turn was being too bossy to Willie). The fight escalates at home resulting in a food fight with spaghetti. They end up not speaking, but Sandy helps to patch things up with them by using reverse psychology on Willie (she talks badly about Mark so that Willie will get defensive on his behalf, resulting in a boringly predictable reconciliation).

In the meantime, David, still mourning Valerie's passing (he seems to be the only one in fact... for everyone else, it's business as usual), becomes a super control freak and makes Sandy feel totally ineffectual and redundant. When she calls him on it, it's explained at the end of the episode that he fears not holding on tight to everything since he fears things will continue to go away as his mother unexpectedly did (he doesn't specifically mention his mother at this point, but it is most definitely implied). Sandy asks him to trust her a little and assures him that she isn't going anywhere. This always bugged me. How could Sandy be sure of that? Valerie Hogan had no intentions of going away either yet she did by way of dying in a car crash. The same thing could have easily happened to Sandy, couldn't it? In either case, he buys her explanation and they embrace tearfully with him telling her that he's glad that she's there for them. End of episode.

This is the episode that Valerie Harper did originally in its second draft. The first draft was shot without her but her character was still alive with the explanation that she was visiting her parents back East. Valerie Harper wasn't fired at that point when these 2 different drafts were done.

Obviously the episode in both versions was somewhat different before Sandy came on. The final draft definitely differed in that it addressed Valerie Hogan's dying. Since that plot point took up a significant amount of the episode, there must have been something else that took its place originally, probably involving the Valerie Hogan character (and even that would have been different in the first draft since she was a no-show). All that is known is that the plots involving the twins were the same. This came directly from Jeremy Licht himself...

Sorry for the length. Hope this helps...

Ed

[dannyyell]

what up Ed? glad to see you back. =P

[Edster2973]

what up Ed? glad to see you back. =P

Awww... :wave:

Ed

[Jack1000]

Quote: "Valerie Hogan had no intentions of going away either yet she did by way of dying in a car crash."

Was this ever explicitly stated in an episode? I may be wrong but I don't think so. I don't believe that it was ever mentioned how Valerie "died."

Jack

[Edster2973]

Quote: "Valerie Hogan had no intentions of going away either yet she did by way of dying in a car crash."

Was this ever explicitly stated in an episode? I may be wrong but I don't think so. I don't believe that it was ever mentioned how Valerie "died."

Jack

Yes it was. When Michael is asked by Sandy in the living room whether he is all packed (he was returning to flying for the first time in 6 months), he responds with an obviously ambivalent 'yeah'. She then responds with "Michael, you'll be gone a week." Michael then answers: "It's the first time I've left the boys since Val's automobile accident." Sandy then says consolingly: "I know. You've done a terrific job. I just think it's time for everyone to get on with their lives." Then the boys (David, Mark & Willie) enter and they have dinner.

That's how it was explained. Briefly, mind you, but it was mentioned...

Ed

[TV Guy]

I remember reading at the time that "Movin' On" was not the first episode Sandy Duncan shot -- she shot several scripts that originally had Valerie in them first. Then the producers shot an episode introducing her charcter, and this episode was aired first. The production number of this episode bears this out.

I don't know what episode Valerie Harper actually shot that was later redone, but it wasn't "Movin' On". That episode was obviously written expressly for Sandy Duncan's character.